Defensive player B1 leaves his feet to defend a faked lob pass. While B1 is airborne, A1 moves underneath him. To avoid injury, B1 grasps the basket ring. While B1 is grasping the ring, A2 shoots the ball. Just after A2 shoots, B1 lets go of the ring and lands safely. The ring is still moving when A2's shot hits the ring and then(a)goes in or(b)doesn't go in.

What's the call in both cases.

Did B1 pull down the moveable ring? If so did the ring contact the ball before it returned to its original position? Was B1 graspng the ring when the ball was in the cylinder?

If not then I got nuthin'.

When a player grasps a ring to prevent injury, s/he is "protected" from a T, but is not "prtoected" from committing a BI violation.

B1 had already let go off the ring before the shot contacted it, but the ring was still moving from B1 pulling on it when the ball hit the ring.

so if it hadn't returned to it's position before the ball hit it(or as you say, rim was still moving) then it has to be basket interference...no T as long as he was avoiding injury

Oh.

Hmmm...B1 can grab the ring to prevent injury but there's no so such exception for making the ring vibrate when the shot's in the air.

Can I just tell the coach I didn't see him grab the ring?

I believe once it returns to it's original locked position there can't be BI, even if the ring's still rockin'.

As long as there is involvement between a defender/basket that causes a ball to not go in--I've got GT. It it was grabbed for protection--pass on the T.

Any action by a defender that causes the basket/support to be moving while the ball is in the cylinder is BI in my book--(I can't quote a rule book reference). EX. Slapping the backboard in an attempt to block a shot while the ball is in the cylinder.

Yabut.........

What does the NFHS believe? Do they agree with you? :D

[/B][/QUOTE]

As long as there is involvement between a defender/basket that causes a ball to not go in--I've got GT. It it was grabbed for protection--pass on the T.
[/B][/QUOTE]

so i can go for a blocked shot and miss the ball and slap the backboard (unintentionally) and make the goal move and your going to call goaltending?????? same thing isn't it..

if the rim is in it's original upright position you can't have anything i wouldn't think??

Any action by a defender that causes the basket/support to be moving while the ball is in the cylinder is BI in my book--(I can't quote a rule book reference). EX. Slapping the backboard in an attempt to block a shot while the ball is in the cylinder.
[/B][/QUOTE]You may want to re-think that "slap" comment, Coach. It's completely wrong, by explicit rule.

As long as there is involvement between a defender/basket that causes a ball to not go in--I've got GT. It it was grabbed for protection--pass on the T.
[/B][/QUOTE]

so i can go for a blocked shot and miss the ball and slap the backboard (unintentionally) and make the goal move and your going to call goaltending?????? same thing isn't it..

if the rim is in it's original upright position you can't have anything i wouldn't think?? [/B][/QUOTE]I'm not sure that the coach is aware of the difference between GT and BI.

You may want to re-think that "slap" comment, Coach. It's completely wrong, by explicit rule. [/B][/QUOTE]

Please give me the rule reference--I have always thought that if you caused the basket (ring/backboard/support) to move while the ball was in the cylinder, that's BI.

If I'm wrong--I need to be corrected (& learn something!)

It just doesn't seem right that a player can slap the backboard in an attempt to block a shot (causing the basket/support to rock) while the ball is in the cylinder, and have that not be BI. I'm sure I have seen it called that way many times.

as long as it's not intentional slapping of the backboard going for a blocked shot... you can not call anything even if u think the ball would have went in if the backboard had not of shook a little.... the only thing you can have is a technical foul if you think the slap was intentional!!!! rule 10.3.5.b says "intentionally slap and cause to vibrate" if they are going for a blocked shot they were not intentionally trying to make the backboard/rim shake... no violation, Although many referees call goaltending to make the offense happy...

Please give me the rule reference--I have always thought that if you caused the basket (ring/backboard/support) to move while the ball was in the cylinder, that's BI.

If I'm wrong--I need to be corrected (& learn something!)

It just doesn't seem right that a player can slap the backboard in an attempt to block a shot (causing the basket/support to rock) while the ball is in the cylinder, and have that not be BI. I'm sure I have seen it called that way many times.

[/B][/QUOTE]

A few yrs ago the ncaa made a change to the BI rule to account for when a player grabs a moveable ring and the ring strikes the ball on a shot before the ring returns to its "original position" (famous Bob Knight-Ted Valentine broo-ha-ha ensued). The nfhs added that last year, rule 4-6-4. This is the ony time BI can apply when the ball's not in the cylinder. BI *never* applies when the violation is making the ring/backboard/supports vibrate.


JR, as far as I'm concerned the ring can "return to its original position" (locked & no longer moving up or down) and still "vibrate". Once it relocks BI is off the table and we're left at most with a T for vibrating the ring during a shot. IMO.

You have something that will make me change my mind?

[Edited by Dan_ref on Nov 9th, 2004 at 12:59 PM]

if you call the "t" for making the ring vibrate....then you just called a "t" on the kid for grabbing the rim to protect him/her self...and then letting go and the rim was still shaking when the shot was taken!!!! So the book says it's legal to grasp the rim, to avoid injury, so when you let it go, it's going to shake a little...so if you determine the grasp to be a legal one, you can't call a "t" when they let it go and a shot is taken as long as it gets put back in it's upright location before contacted by the ball.... IMHO!

Yabut.....

What if the ring is re-locked but still shaking from the grasp when the shot hits it and then (a)either goes in or (b) doesn't go in? What's the call in either case? That was part of the original question?

This is why (IMHO) it should be called BI if the shaking ring causes the ball to come out--it's a judgement call--likely not going to be popular with the offender's team/fans, but I don't think any player should be allowed to disrupt the basket/support, causing a ball to not go in, and be allowed to get away with it.

opinions are varied, that is why we have nfhs rules, and from what i have to go by, i couldn't call anything LEGALLY... now i know you would want too, i can say i've done it too, just because it looked bad, but that wasn't right for me to do either..

Am I missing something here? I have a foul on A1, no shot, no basket in either case. B's ball on the baseline.

Change the situation to B2 getting under B1 however and this discussion seems very applicable.

Sigh...I took the time to give you a brief history of the rule and a rule reference...yet you ignored me.

I feel so...so...unnoticed...

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/98....depressed.jpg

No contact by A1- B1 avoided the contact by hanging on the rim. Can't call a personal foul on A1 with no contact. Works with B2 being under there too.

Hey, the coach is new, but he's still smart enough to consider the source. :D

PS- Yoo-hoo, Coach. Listen to Dan. He wouldn't lie to you about no BI ever for just slapping a back board and making the ring vibrate.

Sorry!!!

Didn't mean to ignore(disrespect) anyone. I appreciate the reference--and I freely admit that, by rule, this is a no-call if the ring has re-locked in its normal position. However, in a game--I'd have to see it to be sure--I'm probably going to blow the whistle and count the basket if I think the ball was caused to come out by the shaking of the ring/basket caused by the player hanging on the rim.

No way I'm calling a T on the kid for hanging on the rim to protect himself--but no way I'm going to let him gain an advantage (the ball coming out) just because he happened to be hanging on the rim at a time when he was seeking personal protection. I admit that I can't justify my call by a rule in the rule book, but as a lifelong player/coach/official/fan and absolute lover of the game, this is a call I can sleep soundly with.

No disrespect intended.

Thanks.

:)

No disrespect taken, I'm just playing with you.

But there's no way you can justify a call that is counter to the rules (such as awarding 2 points for shaking the ring) just becuase you thought it was the right thing to do. If you're working a league where this type of play might happen you are asking for big trouble by doing so.

Hey, come to think of it, this might make one of those great FED test questions:

Question #101- <i>" A defender hangs on the ring to avoid injury. A1 shoots, and his shot then hits the ring while it is still moving from the defender grasping the ring, but after the defender has released the ring. After hitting the still moving ring, the ball then goes in. The try counts.

True or false?</i>

needs to be more clear... "the ring still moving could mean moving up and down returning to it's original position or not" needs to say the ring has returned to it's position but is still shaking.... :)

Ah, time to finish this one off. It's been fun.

Nope, by rule you can have BI up until the time that the ring stops moving. Ergo, the proper call in this sitch is:
1) No "T" for B1 legally hanging on the rim to prevent injury.
2) In the case where the shot hits the still-moving ring and goes in--- whistle as soon as the shot touches the moving ring because BI is called on B1 as soon as the ball hits the moving ring...no try even though the shot went in because the ball is dead as soon as the whistle for the BI was blown... award 2 points to A2 for the BI...team B gets the ball OOB for a throw-in and can run the end line.
3) In there case where the shot hits the still-moving ring and falls off...whistle as soon as ball hits the moving ring and call BI on B1. Award 2 points to A2. Team B gets the ball OOB for a throw-in, and can run the end line.

If anybody disagrees, I'll tell you where to find the ruling.

Nope, correct answer is False.

The try doesn't count because the ball is dead as soon as the whistle goes for the BI. The ball then went in after the BI was called...i.e. the actual try doesn't count, but you still have 2 points AWARDED for the BI. Same result, but different rules verbiage applying.

As I said, a perfect exam question for the FED. They love trying to get us with this kind of question.

I disagree. OK, not really, but where's the ruling? [/B][/QUOTE]Oh ye of little faith...... :D

http://www.nfhs.org/scriptcontent/va...Category_ID=29

Click on this link, then look up "Rules Interpretations Release Date: 11/7/03" near the bottom of the left-hand column and click on that. Check out Situation 15. This is a year-old interpretation. Still valid but eminently forgettable. I don't have a clue why it never made this year's case book.

Oh ye of little faith...... :D

http://www.nfhs.org/scriptcontent/va...Category_ID=29

Click on this link, then look up "Rules Interpretations Release Date: 11/7/03" near the bottom of the left-hand column and click on that. Check out Situation 15. This is a year-old interpretation. Still valid but eminently forgettable. I don't have a clue why it never made this year's case book. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmmm.....maybe I gotta make a phone call on this...

Hmmmm.....maybe I gotta make a phone call on this... [/B][/QUOTE]Dan, look in the front of your 2003-04 Case Book under "Comments on the 2003-04 Revisions" on p3. You'll see <b>9.11.4SITUATION</b> near the bottom of the page. That play is similar to Situation 15 on the NFHS web-site that I referred to, except that a part(c) has been added. That (c) part talks about BI not being applicable after the ring stops vibrating(returns to it's normal position). Note that it says "vibrating" and not "stopped moving up and down". I read that as the ring having to come to a complete rest again before the BI restrictions come off. Sound logical?

I weighed in on this one yesterday (although not with much weight!) and I thought that this was the correct call. Thanks for clearifying it and later supporting it with the rule reference.

It's good to know my instincts aren't all wrong.

Dan, look in the front of your 2003-04 Case Book under "Comments on the 2003-04 Revisions" on p3. You'll see <b>9.11.4SITUATION</b> near the bottom of the page. That play is similar to Situation 15 on the NFHS web-site that I referred to, except that a part(c) has been added. That (c) part talks about BI not being applicable after the ring stops vibrating(returns to it's normal position). Note that it says "vibrating" and not "stopped moving up and down". I read that as the ring having to come to a complete rest again before the BI restrictions come off. Sound logical? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yep, very good!

In reading all of the responses to this question, I didn't find any that addressed the way I would have seen this play:

If B1 goes straight up, and A1 cuts under him/her to the point where he/she(B1)has to grab something for safety reasons, it seems to me that A1 has committed a foul, the ball is dead, and that's where the play ends.(?)

No foul if B1 hangs on the rim to avoid being undercut by A1. You can't have a personal foul on A1 without contact occurring.

This very play is the best reason I can think of to stick to high school girls. ** small sigh of happiness **