When to give your partner

[rfp]

Opinions please:

I'm trail at mid-court on the opposite side from the ball. My partner is lead at the baseline, same side as the ball. Defense knocks ball out of bounds and, clear to me, it knocks off the offensive players leg before going out of bounds. Since it lead's sideline, he makes the call. His call is emphatic and keeps the ball with the offensive team. He doesn't look to me for any help. Defensive team coach looks to me to overrule; I tell him it's my partner's call.

At what point does a partner volunteer help? If I run over and quietly offer my view of what happened to him, I run the risk of showing him up. If I don't offer what I saw, good chance the wrong call gets made.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rfp
At what point does a partner volunteer help?

He/she should only do that when he/she clearly did not see the play. That especially can happen when the ball did not originate from their primary coverage area. But there is no one size fits all situations.

Originally posted by rfp
If I run over and quietly offer my view of what happened to him, I run the risk of showing him up. If I don't offer what I saw, good chance the wrong call gets made.

Why would you be showing him up? If you discuss these kinds of situations in your pregame with your partners, no one should feel upset about what you do after you come to him/her. I just would not make a habit of coming to your partner on every out of bounds call. You better be 1000% sure he got it wrong. If there is any doubt, stick with his/her call.

Peace

[rainmaker]

It's a judgement thing, as Jeff says. Here are some considerations:

Is p an old coot who has specifically stated or strongly inplied that he doesn't need help?

Is p fairly new, and might welcome a diplomatic intervention?

Have you and p worked together before so that you know what his response might be?

Is it the sort of game where you could say to coach B, "Look, he's not giving away the game, let's just get on with the game" (40 point spread in the last two minutes)?

Is one or the other of you being evaluated?

Is stepping in and correcting your partner at the right tme something you need to work on? Then you should have pre-gamed this, and you should use those criteria to decide.

[blindzebra]

If the ball was in his primary and went out on his line, should you know who caused the ball to go OOB?

[zebraman]

Originally posted by blindzebra
If the ball was in his primary and went out on his line, should you know who caused the ball to go OOB?

Sounds like this is 2-person officiating. Quite possible that the deflection happened in the trail's primary even though the ball went out of bounds on the lead's sideline.

You might want to add this scenario to your standard pregame conference. It is part of mine.

Z

[gordon30307]

If you have definite knowledge that your partner is wrong. Go to him tell him what you have and let him change the call if he agrees. Also since he was lead and you were trail why were you looking in his primary? You should have been off ball.

[rockyroad]

The original question "When to give your partner help" has a very simple answer - when your partner asks for help!

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by zebraman

Sounds like this is 2-person officiating. Quite possible that the deflection happened in the trail's primary even though the ball went out of bounds on the lead's sideline.

You might want to add this scenario to your standard pregame conference. It is part of mine.

Z

In re-reading the original post, he did say, "The ball was on his side of the court," so it may have been in trail's primary.

That still keeps the primaries issue relevant, because if the ball was in trail's primary then lead should not have known who caused the ball to go out on their line.

So we have when to offer help, primaries, and pregame issues all in one simple play.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by rfp
Opinions please:

I'm trail at mid-court on the opposite side from the ball. My partner is lead at the baseline, same side as the ball. Defense knocks ball out of bounds and, clear to me, it knocks off the offensive players leg before going out of bounds. Since it lead's sideline, he makes the call. His call is emphatic and keeps the ball with the offensive team. He doesn't look to me for any help. Defensive team coach looks to me to overrule; I tell him it's my partner's call.

At what point does a partner volunteer help? If I run over and quietly offer my view of what happened to him, I run the risk of showing him up. If I don't offer what I saw, good chance the wrong call gets made.

AND THE COACH NOW THINKS WHAT OF YOUR ABILITIES???

This situation happens often during transition. Yeah it's your partner's line but he is just settling it and perhaps wasn't even looking at the play. It is your responsibility to offer help... "Did you see the ball hit #21's leg before going out of bounds?"

It's is also your partner's responsibility to look to you for help if he didn't see the whole play.

I'm thinking that if both you and the coach saw the play, then several others did too, and you likely need to get the call right by offering your help.

This is just another reason for focusing on your primary AND NOT LOOKING AT COACHES! - then it really was your partner's call.

[Rich]

Originally posted by blindzebra

In re-reading the original post, he did say, "The ball was on his side of the court," so it may have been in trail's primary.

That still keeps the primaries issue relevant, because if the ball was in trail's primary then lead should not have known who caused the ball to go out on their line.

So we have when to offer help, primaries, and pregame issues all in one simple play.

I've never bought this -- I'm officiating my primary, but that doesn't mean that I can NEVER, EVER know what happens outside my primary. We all have secondary coverages and we all have peripheral vision.

If you're 100% sure your partner missed it, then you should've pregamed what you're going to do. If you're not 100% certain, you shouldn't say anything.

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by rockyroad
The original question "When to give your partner help" has a very simple answer - when your partner asks for help!

Well, the original sitch stated that the off ball official had definite knowledge (perceived or otherwise) of a call that is opposite of his partner. Granted, this SHOULD be a point discussed in pre-game. In any event, I think you should at least offer the information even if he did not ask you for it. It is not too unlikely that my field of vision could have included the play even though it may have not been in my primary. Overlap can and does occur, expecially in 2-man.

Normally, I would not offer unless I had definite knowledge in my mind, I would wait to be asked by him. But it is not always a simple answer. IMHO

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Robmoz

Well, the original sitch stated that the off ball official had definite knowledge (perceived or otherwise) of a call that is opposite of his partner. Granted, this SHOULD be a point discussed in pre-game. In any event, I think you should at least offer the information even if he did not ask you for it. It is not too unlikely that my field of vision could have included the play even though it may have not been in my primary. Overlap can and does occur, expecially in 2-man.

Normally, I would not offer unless I had definite knowledge in my mind, I would wait to be asked by him. But it is not always a simple answer. IMHO

I think it is a very simple answer...I tell my partners in pre-game that unless they ask for my help, I'm not coming in there...I will stand there and look at them with the big-eyed "Hey, do you want my help" look, but if they don't ask, we're going with what they call...

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
If you're 100% sure your partner missed it, then you should've pregamed what you're going to do. If you're not 100% certain, you shouldn't say anything.

Rich is 95% correct.

The only thing I would say differently is. . . If you're 100% certain that your partner missed a line call, then go to him/her and offer your info, regardless of whether you pregamed it or not. If you're not certain, then let your partner live or die with the call.

[SMEngmann]

I agree that basically only when you're 100% sure you're right AND your partner seems unsure with his call should you ask for help. If your partner is emphatic with his call, he has good reason for making it and stay away. If he seems hesitant or unsure and you ARE sure, step in and give him the info. Shouldn't make any difference whether you're being evaluated.

Same thing with foul calls, if you extend, it better be a trainwreck and you know your partner missed it or was screened out, especially in 3-person. Trust your partner's judgement, he/she usually has reason for making/passing on certain calls.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
I agree that basically only when you're 100% sure you're right AND your partner seems unsure with his call

Personally, I don't care if my partner is emphatic or not. If I'm sure s/he's wrong on a line call, I will go and offer what I saw.

Sometimes, being emphatic is an attempt to "sell" the call when the official is unsure. Being emphatic is not a good reason to allow an incorrect call to stand in OOB situations.