What does everybody think of the inbound play where player 'A' on the inbounding team bounces the inbound pass off of player 'B's back then steps in picks up the ball and scores? I can argue it 20 different ways. I can see reasons for it to be considered both legal and illegal.

What reasons do you see for it being illegal? :confused:

Btw, welcome to the forum.

As long as the thrower is inbounds when he touches the ball, there's absolutely nothing illegal about this play.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 6th, 2004 at 01:55 PM]

If the defender intentionally touches it, and the thrower gets it back (inbounds, of course), it's a good play. So why would it be different if the defender touches it unintentionally?

I can only argue it a few ways:

1) It is legal.
2) Legal is it.
3) Legal it is.
4) Is legal, it.
5) It legal is.

kltuck,
Welcome to the forum.
Like the men implied, nuthin' to argue about.
mick

Welcome to The Forum
 

I truly am curious as to the argument of this play being "illegal."

Some might argue that it is "unsportsmanlike", but that is not illegal.

Re: Welcome to The Forum
 

williebfree,
Shucks! All it is... is poor defense.
The only guy that wants it illegal is a poor coach. ;)
mick

Thanks Mick
 

However, I am still curious. What is the logic for a contrary argument? Or more importantly, what rules would be used to support the counterpoint? What are the "reasons" for it to be considered illegal.

Isn't it interesting that a coach would "argue" against the rules of the game.... :D

I personaly think it is quite refreshing to see this play. It is nothing but a smart play by the inbounding team and we all know that doing smart things in sports is not a prerequisite.

...it's smart if they pull it off. Incredibly stupid otherwise!

Wow great response. Thanks
 

I guess I was kind of leaning toward the unsportsmanlike. Lat year in a summer league I saw a kid being smart and through the ball at an opponent just trying to start something. He was dribbling fancy, the other team was way behind, he was showing off. The crowd went wild and the ref didn't call anything. Everyone was irate, wanting a 'T' or flagrant. The ref told me there wasn't a rule against it. Well, I guess same thing applies. Do you get in things like how hard was it thrown? Is it taunting? Then it stands to reason that I could dribble the full length of the floor, pick up my dribble, throw the ball at an opponent's back, and resume my dribble, Right? I guess I just never thought of it. Please respond to the last statement.
Thanks

Spelling
 

Yeah, Yeah, through - threw. I was in a hurry.

Coach?
 

By the way I'm an 8 year ref that spends way too much time in the books waiting for that one rule that's gonna kill me on the floor ... not a coach. I just find a lot of enjoyment tearing apart all possibilities.

I guess my only real questions is is it legal to throw a ball intentionally at an opponent. Not an errant pass or a poor shot attempt but an intentional striking an opponent with the ball. Sounds like it is.

It's legal if it's a "basketball" play, such as the one that you described in your first post. That play was used to gain an advantage that is legal by rule,and it isn't an unsporting act. If an official thought that the act of deliberately throwing the ball at an opponent was unsporting and was done to taunt or maybe hurt an opponent , then a "T" certainly could be called- even a flagrant "T". Iow, it's a judgement call on the official's part. Casebook play 10.3.7SitB gives you a little guidance.

JR,
Nice.
A coach could understand that.
mick

The Yoda Doctrine.

A coach could understand that.


[/B][/QUOTE]Grin.

Whatinthehell happened to MTU yesterday. Get 50,000 plus at the Big House and then they got whupped by 17? Does that mean bye-bye to a play-off game in Houghton?

Doesn't their basketball team play MU today too in a pre-season game?

Grin.

Whatinthehell happened to MTU yesterday. Get 50,000 plus at the Big House and then they got whupped by 17? Does that mean bye-bye to a play-off game in Houghton?

Doesn't their basketball team play MU today too in a pre-season game? [/B][/QUOTE]

JR,
Football being what it is, Tech had 1st quarter, game ending injuries to Tailback, Quarterback and Defensive lineman, all of whom were being scouted by pros. With their first loss of the season, Tech football is still in the playoffs, but it may be a short road depending on those injuries. (<I>Tech football program was scrapped two years ago, but donations kept it afloat. Primarily an engineering school, Tech football, it seems, has a 100% graduation rate.</I>)

Yes, DII Tech Men will skirmish Wolverines today.

Thanks for keeping an eye on Michigan Tech sports!
mick

How would it apply in this case? A1 ends his dribble and cannot find anyone to whom to pass the ball, so to avert not having a 5 second closely guarded violation called, A1 intentionally throws the ball against B1. A1 catches the ball and starts another dribble. The official calls this a double dribble. The coach inquires about the call and the official informs the coach that voluntarily throwing the ball against another player is illegal. Is the official correct?

And what is B1 doing? <LI>Looking at cheerleaders<LI>Taking a nap<LI>Facing another direction<LI>Tieing his shoe<LI>Lying on the floor

:rolleyes:
mick

No, the official is NOT correct. Legal play.

Can you think of a rule that would make it illegal?

One example of when this would be unsporting is when they through it off their opponent's head. If you've ever watched those "And 1" shows they do it all the time. I would definitely consider this taunting and unsporting.

Basketball play?
 

Where do the books address the term "Basketball Play?" Using that train of thought, if a coach said dribble down the court and bounce the ball off the nearest opponent that would make it an official basketball play and therefore legal? Can't buy that. I understand that everyone has opinions and interpretations but I try to find my basis for decisions in the book where possible.

I just don't agree, that doesn't make me right.

It's not a basketball play just b/c the coach says to do it. A "basketball play" is a "normal" way of playing the game. Touching an opponent with the ball is a normal part of the game, even if it's done intentionally. Touching an opponent with the ball in order to injure him/her is not a normal way to play the game and must be penalized.

Re: Basketball play?
 

kltuck,
It would be good for you to take a look at Page 10 of the Rule Book. Read it. Sense it. Begin to feel it. ;)
mick

Re: Basketball play?
 

If you don't agree and you try to find your basis for your decisions in the book, then please cite something out of the book that would make that play illegal then.

I'm always willing to learn.

PS- you may want to check out casebook play 9.5.3 during your search for a rules citation that will back up your position:
<i>"A1 is dribbling in backcourt and ends the dribble, but defensive pressure prevents a pass to A2. A1 then passes the ball so that it touches B1. A1 recovers the loose ball in backcourt and dribbles again.
RULING: NO VIOLATION. When A1's pass was touched by, or touched another player, he/she may start a new dribble. The 10-second backcourt count continues"</i>.

PPS- That's not MY opinion or interpretation. It's the NFHS's opinion, interpretation and rule.

I'm having trouble believing that someone who has officiated for eight years has problems with this. Shouldn't one have learned long ago that throwing the ball so that it deflects OFF an opponent is legal, but throwing the ball AT an opponent is unsporting?
And if the necessary judgment to decide which action is taking place hasn't developed in those eight years, it might be time to start thinking about doing something else with your spare time.

Nevadaref
 

I agree and have at no time said otherwise. I am just pushing both sides because I want to hear everyones opinions as well as those that can cite the true rules.) Not, just the arrogant greater than thou opinions such as yours. I think it's great that after years, you have closed your mind to the other thoughts out there because you have everything figured out to the letter. I can only hope that I never become so closed minded.

Thanks Jurassic, finally someone knew what was in print.

Manners
 

Poor manners on someone else's part do not justify poor manners in return. I apologoze to all who read this. I respect Nevadaref's opinions as I do everyone's. What makes these forums great is the ability to have so many diverse opinions, but it's difficult not to respond to personal attacks during your first post to the site. I suppose I'll get accustomed to it. There is always someone out there willing to beat on there chest for all to hear. I suppose I'm one of them sometimes.

I used someone and the pronoun one instead of you purposely. My thought was mostly disbelief. YOU took it as a personal attack. YOU also seemed to be rather ungrateful to Mick, who took the time to cite the best Case Book play dealing with possible unsporting behavior from throwing the ball at an opponent during the course of the game (Throw-in strikes opponent in face 10.3.7SitB) and even gave you a good rule of thumb, "basketball play", for making the decision that this play says the administering official will have to make.

YOU could only be flippant and come back with where is the term "basketball play" in the book. Have you never heard this term used by an official before?

JR, then further supported Mick by quoting a play that has nothing to do with unsporting behavior, but tells you that once the ball touches an opponent it is legal to dribble again.

I still can't believe that you or ANYONE else could have been officiating for eight years and not become aware of these Case Book plays. Do you not buy a NFHS Case Book each season where you are? Is your only source of information what other officials tell you is legal or illegal?
If my tone seemed harsh to you, it is because I have taken the time to familiarize myself with the rules which guide us in these kind of situations and think about how I will call these plays if they ever do arise in a game of mine. Therefore, I harbor some resentment towards officials who haven't bothered to do the same, but choose to take the court year-after-year unprepared.

Then again, perhaps I am being too tough on you. This is your first posting on the board and you are afterall making an effort to learn, and say that you like to get into the rules. You just struck a nerve with me when JR gave you the best answers and you still disagreed with him. Good luck to you.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Nov 9th, 2004 at 02:20 AM]

It was JR.
 

Nevadaref,
It was JR that gave the pertinent information.
I was merely along for the ride.
mick

Oops, you're right. I didn't see the originally posted by at the top of your post.

Yes, DII Tech Men will skirmish Wolverines today.

[/B][/QUOTE]Not too shabby. Held the big boys to 60 points and rebounded well against them.

Not too shabby. Held the big boys to 60 points and rebounded well against them. [/B][/QUOTE]

YU.P.
Got whupped 43-60.
30.4% shooting and 6-24 from the arc.
An "Awesome opportunity" to play the NIT champs in that setting. - MTU Coach