With 15 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter Team A has the ball trailing by 2. A1 attempts a 2 point try with 10 seconds remaining. While the try is in the air, A2 near the basket excessively swings elbows. The official calls a violation, but counts the goal when A1's try enters the basket. Team B inbounds and the coach has his team dribble out the clock without even attempting a try. Following the period ending horn, Team B's coach goes to the table and requests a TO to discuss a correctable error. He claims that the official erroneously counted the last score.

What would you do?

First we have to determine if this situation even allows for a correctable error. I'm always open to being corrected, but I'm pretty sure this is an applicable case. The ball had not been made live after the first dead ball following the "erroneous" score. Next we have to decide if it was actually an erroneously awarded score. I'm leaning toward saying it was, and therefore this situation sounds like a correctable error. Take the points off the board and call it a game. There is no rule that says a coach that knows the rules can't take advantage of them.

I'm with Boomer. Obviously falls under 2-10, obviously within the correctable time frame. Cancel the basket and hit the shower.

Cancel and move on.

Probably for a brown pop. :D

Agreed. As I've said before, the 2-10 rules are such that you can never be sure exactly which team will benefit, so *both* coaches need to watch for the situation.

Team A, in the play at hand, might have thought it "got away with one". As it turns out, they should have "done the right thing" and requested the points be taken off before B put the ball in play.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I believe that if the try was alredy in the air, it is viewed seperately from the violation. If the violation by the shooting team occurs before the try is launched it would cancel the shot.

The situation is correctable, but in this case I think the ref got it right.

OK...I've been off the floor for a bit, but why would this shot not count? The ball was in the air when the call was made.

I may be very wrong...things get fuzzy after a lay off and I'm still waiting on my books to start studying. May be stupid question #1...or is that stupid person asking question #1? :)

in rule 9-13 penalty says "ball is dead when violation occurs and is given to opponent for throw in", but also has EXCEPTION, SEE 6-7-9 exception 4 which says "ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends when excessively swinging arms/elbows violation occurs" so i would take that as saying the ref counted the basket correctly!!!

6-7 Excp 4 refers to a violation "by an opponent". Since this wsan't by an opponent, the ball becomes dead immediately upon the violation.

9.13.1 contains the exact play.

Agree with Bob....
 

my bad, it does say if opponent commits violation basket would still be good!!!! but if it's a team mate, then ball IS DEAD AT THE POINT OF VIOLATION....

Duh...Ok, maybe if I would read carefully I would keep straight who committed the violation. Maybe I need more coffee.

The fascinating thing in this, for me, is that A gets penalized more here than if A2 just pushed B2 out of the way while the ball was in the air.

Offensive foul while ball in the air, basket counts.
Offensive violation while ball in the air, no basket.

BTW, has anyone actually called an elbow violation on a player without the ball?

Why is this different than a foul during a try?
 

I understand that excessively swinging the elbow during a try is a violation and if committed by a team mate the goal does not count. But why is this different than when a foul occurs during the same play? We count the basket when a foul is committed. What's the logic behind this?

A foul in my opinion is more severe. Suppose A2 committed a flagrant foul while the ball was in flight. We count the basket. But when A2 excessively swings his arms and does not make contact, but we call a violation, we wipe away the points?!?!?!

I just don't understand the reasoning behind this.

maybe they are saying since it's a violation (kind of like traveling or 3 seconds) if the ball is in the air it doesn't matter, you still have no basket... but on a foul, the ball is in the air it can still count....don't know for sure, but it sounded good at the time.. :)

I know I'm preaching to the choir
 

But it still does not make sense to have a rule that would penalize a team more when a violation occurs than when a foul is committed. In this limited scenario it would have been better if the player had push the defender. At least then the basket would have counted and if not in the bonus and not deemed a flagrant or intentional foul, team B wouldn't even get a free throw. Just ball out of bounds at the spot of the foul.

In practice, this isn't going to happen. The only violation that I can think of that could possibly happen during a try is swinging the elbows (or leaving the playing area for an unauthorized reason, but isn't that still a T in fed?). 3 seconds isn't applicable on a try, and a kick would be utterly rediculous on a successful try.
As for the elbow thing, I've never seen anyone even come close to this violation who didn't have the ball.

Re: I know I'm preaching to the choir
 

I'm not sure what a viable alternative would be. What if the ball did not become dead? Then when the basket is made, B gets the ball anyway. Where is the penalty?

From the "Don't put you-know-what into the game" part of the unofficial officials' handbook:

How about holding the whistle long enough to let the ball go through the basket before blowing it? Why would you put a non-contact violation into a 2 point game with 15 seconds to go? Even if the elbow swinging was excessive, the split-second hold of the whistle would've kept you from taking points off the board while still giving you time to address that situation as soon as the ball went through the hoop.

Re: Re: I know I'm preaching to the choir
 

The same can be said for a foul. When A2 commits a foul while A1's shot is in flight, we still count the basket and team B gets the ball out of bounds. Where is the penalty on Team A? If they are not in the bonus, there is no penalty, right?

One of the things that makes referring Basketball, or any sport for that matter, difficult is when the mechanics for similar events are different. In this case we have an offensive foul committed while the ball was in flight and we count the basket if made. Then in another similar situation we have an offensive violation while the ball is in flight and we kill it right away. It seems to me that the two should be handled the same.

But after reading your post and thinking about it some more, I can see your point. At least with the foul situation, the foul counts toward the team fouls and if the team were in the bonus they would get a 1-1.

The violation counts toward nothing, so to be punitive you would have to kill it. Ok, you convinced me. I'm wrong!

Thanks!
Randall

One person noted that swinging elbows happens most of the time when a player has the ball.

If there is a ball in the air and there is a person wildly swinging their elbows away from the play I would seriously be looking at a non-contact T, or a unsporting T..

My bet it that is an intentional act...and not the violation type of swinging

From a cosmetic point of view, this works.

However, remember that the ball becomes dead when the violation occurs, not when the whistle is blown. If a coach starts questioning you as to that, well - good luck.

A similar violation is if a teammate of the free throw shooter steps in the lane before the ball hits the rim. You call that violation immediately and wipe the free throw if good.
Even though the ball has been released, and still in the air, the play is immediately stopped.