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-   -   hey ref -you're too personal (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/1618-hey-ref-youre-too-personal.html)

rocky Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:10pm

just a stupid coach here i am sure, but i think the official is wrong here. Our area of basketball sees the same official several times a year. Last night one official told my player when he was whistled for his fourth foul--"dont worry , you wont get the fifth, i let you play" -- it should not matter-- a foul is a foul. Dont believe officials should base a call on who the athlete is or how many fouls they are ready have. what do you guys think.(My player is my best player and probably the area's best)

Tim Roden Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:16pm

I disagree with making a statement like that. But when a player has 4 fouls I want to make sure his 5th foul is a solid foul. Everyone always remembers the 5th fouls. Especially when it is a star player.

Rookie Thu Feb 01, 2001 09:40am

I also disagree with this statement. The other night I was working a game and one team had a player get 3 fouls early in the 3rd, same foul every time (you think he would learn). I wanted to make sure his 5th was a good one, he ended up fouling a player inbounding the ball.

refjef40 Thu Feb 01, 2001 01:07pm

Yes coach that is a very stupid statement.I agree with the other replies make sure a player earns his fifth foul but don't ignore anything obvious.Bottom line is officials don't need to comment on anything but things that help keep the game flowing.Officials should never be commenting on how they are going to officiate.

Richard Ogg Thu Feb 01, 2001 01:26pm

If I'm aware that it is the player's 5th foul then I'll make sure it really is his foul. However, I will not require it to be a "solid foul". If I see the foul, I call it.

Sometimes officials will call a foul for the "reach" out in the open. I know this is sometimes called when the official could not actually see the contact but assumed the contact was there. (I say this because I've had a different angle and could verify there was no contact.) It is this kind of foul that I don't want to be a 5th.

Tuesday one team had a player much taller than everyone else on the court. Yes, he dominated the play (especially the boards!). He fouled out on my call. He attempted to block a shot from behind, but his body made contact and displaced the shooter. No, the shooter didn't go to the floor on his face, and one could argue it was not "solid". But, there was displacement so I made the call. (His 5th was identical to his 3rd.)

I think about RID - redirect, impede, displace.

Mark Padgett Thu Feb 01, 2001 02:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Roden
I disagree with making a statement like that. But when a player has 4 fouls I want to make sure his 5th foul is a solid foul. Everyone always remembers the 5th fouls. Especially when it is a star player.
Tim - I think this is the first time I ever disagreed with you in all these years. I know this type of thinking is common with a lot of officials. That doesn't make it right.

You shouldn't think of the foul from the standpoint of how it affects the fouler, but how it affects the player who was fouled. If they were fouled in the same manner as all the other fouls you called that night up until then, they deserve to have the foul called regardless of who committed it. If you don't call it, you are penalizing that player for being faster, stronger, taller, etc.

When you start changing your criteria for fouls during the game, especially due to a player having four already, then you - not the players - are determining the outcome of the game and that's not right. This is the same problem I have with refs who only call "blood" fouls late in a close game. They think they are "letting the players decided the game" when exactly the opposite is true. There's another post and thread on this board and it's labeled "pet peeve." Well - this is mine.

Furthermore, I certainly don't buy into the theory that there is a different standard for "star" players than there is for everyone else. This isn't the NBA and it is still an athletic event, not show business.

I cover this in pregame all the time and let my partner know I intend to call the game (and especially fouls) the same exact way from start to finish regardless of the score. I tell him (or her) that I expect the same from them.

Mike Burns Thu Feb 01, 2001 02:54pm

No official should EVER make a comment such as that. It destroys credibility. What will the player or coach think of your "impartiallity" the next time you have a game there?

Durring a tournament this year in which we had some out-of-state teams here in FLA at WDW, a coach complained about my call of a 4th foul on her "star" player. "That's her 4th and she's my best scorer!" I simply repied, "I don't count 'em coach I just call 'em."

BTW save the "You're from Florida?!? I KNOW YOU can't count!" responses.

Mike

Mark Padgett Thu Feb 01, 2001 03:49pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Burns
a coach complained about my call of a 4th foul on her "star" player. "That's her 4th and she's my best scorer!" I simply repied, "I don't count 'em coach I just call 'em."Mike
How about, "Yeah, and if she gets a 5th she'll be your best bench warmer."

I think I'll mention that one to Dave.

hoopsrefBC Thu Feb 01, 2001 04:25pm

As an official who is aware of all aspects of the game, I personally will call the game consistant from start to end. However after saying that there are some instances were if given the opportunity to pass on a "questionable foul" late in the game, especially if the player committing the "questionable foul" has four fouls, i will.

Another situation occurs when two players foul at the same time. If i know one of the players fouling is a "star" player and they have four fouls, i will be inclined to choose the non-star player that doesn't have four fouls. (and yes i know i could call a multiply foul!)

If an official treats the last five minutes of a game, like the first five minute they won't last very long. How many of us as officials try to call hand checking closer in the begining of the game to avoid having to call it late.? Do we change our call selection during the game? I think everyone does.

What could have a greater inpact on the outcome of a game. Calling a questionable fifth foul on a "star" player and fouling them out or not calling a questionable fifth foul and letting the "star" player determine the out-come of the game.


Don't get me wrong a stupid / hard / easy to call foul committed by the "star" player will always get called.



Understanding all aspect of the game, especially late in a ball game is (in my opinion) the officials job. Everyone remember the great plays, no one remembers the great calls.


keep smiling
SH

[Edited by hoopsrefBC on Feb 1st, 2001 at 03:29 PM]

Tim Roden Thu Feb 01, 2001 05:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Roden
I disagree with making a statement like that. But when a player has 4 fouls I want to make sure his 5th foul is a solid foul. Everyone always remembers the 5th fouls. Especially when it is a star player.
Tim - I think this is the first time I ever disagreed with you in all these years. I know this type of thinking is common with a lot of officials. That doesn't make it right.

You shouldn't think of the foul from the standpoint of how it affects the fouler, but how it affects the player who was fouled. If they were fouled in the same manner as all the other fouls you called that night up until then, they deserve to have the foul called regardless of who committed it. If you don't call it, you are penalizing that player for being faster, stronger, taller, etc.

When you start changing your criteria for fouls during the game, especially due to a player having four already, then you - not the players - are determining the outcome of the game and that's not right. This is the same problem I have with refs who only call "blood" fouls late in a close game. They think they are "letting the players decided the game" when exactly the opposite is true. There's another post and thread on this board and it's labeled "pet peeve." Well - this is mine.

Furthermore, I certainly don't buy into the theory that there is a different standard for "star" players than there is for everyone else. This isn't the NBA and it is still an athletic event, not show business.

I cover this in pregame all the time and let my partner know I intend to call the game (and especially fouls) the same exact way from start to finish regardless of the score. I tell him (or her) that I expect the same from them.

Mark, I was going to say we are really in agreement but I think we are not. I have called some small school games where I will lay off the whistle just to keep someone in the game. But if there is a foul, then there is a foul. Yea, like someone else has said, if a "multiple foul" occurs then we pick the player with less fouls to give the foul to. If we have a slight hand check then we let it go. But if it is a good foul that we have been calling all game, then we have to call it. This player should know what those calls are since he already has 4 of them.

Mark Dexter Thu Feb 01, 2001 06:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Burns
No official should EVER make a comment such as that. It destroys credibility. What will the player or coach think of your "impartiallity" the next time you have a game there?

Durring a tournament this year in which we had some out-of-state teams here in FLA at WDW, a coach complained about my call of a 4th foul on her "star" player. "That's her 4th and she's my best scorer!" I simply repied, "I don't count 'em coach I just call 'em."

BTW save the "You're from Florida?!? I KNOW YOU can't count!" responses.

Mike

Anyone else smelling job opportunity for Al Gore?

Ref: "That's five fouls on #34, coach. You have thirty seconds to replace him."
Coach: "Not so fast. Al Gore is on our side and is filing a motion with the Supreme Court for a recount as we speak."

Tim Roden Thu Feb 01, 2001 06:55pm

No, I don't smell recount but a clinton appointee could issue an injuction to keep him in the game:-)

Mark Dexter Thu Feb 01, 2001 09:53pm

Do presidential pardons apply to DQ's in basketball games?


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