Interesting thing happened in last night's game........35 seconds left in a close game. Team A inbounds the ball, quickly shoots a 3, and hits it. Then, Team B inbounds and is fouled immediately. The problem.....the clock didn't start. Neither my partner or I were keeping a count during the play, but clearly, time should have come off the clock. I took 2 seconds off the clock. More time had probably elapsed, but I didn't want to take *too* much off. The issue, I believe, is "direct knowledge" and "official information". Is knowledge that time *should* have come off good enough information to take some time off? Or, do we need to have been keeping a mental count to justify taking any time off?

Unfortunately, the rules don't provide for you to take ANY time off of the clock. Unless you have definite information as to how much time had elapsed, you can't do anything- except talk to the timer about not doing it again, and explaining to both coaches exactly why you couldn't take any time off of the clock.

NFHS rule 5-10.

In theory.

In practice, you would be nuts to not take *some* time off. The goal then (IMO) is to take the amount of time off that leaves both coaches thinking you came to a fair conclusion, or as fair as possible.

Sure you were...
* You had the OOB count
* You had the closely quarded count
* You had the back court count (if applicable)
* You had that mental count on the player in the key

get the picture? ;)

NFHS Rule 5-10-2

Ron,

Not that this helped you in this situation, but next time just be aware of the clock. Especially when time is running out in the half or quarter or the game. You should get in the habit of knowing clock status so that when the clock does not start, you know quickly. All it takes sometimes is a quick glance from at least one official and you know how to correct it.

Peace

That's good advice. In last night's situation, the clock was behind me, so I couldn't see it. I like to think that I would have had the prescence of mind to keep a count had I known that it didn't start. But, until I'm in that situation, I won't know for sure (I do like my chances better today than I did yesterday, though).

Learn from it, that's always a good thing. Not that it directly applies to your situation, but when I have an end of quarter/half situation I keep my count beyond whatever count I have,i.e. if I have a back court count and no closly guarded count I keep a mental count going. This means I can fix your situation and I can anticiate the horn.

Definite knowledge could be a "minimum". If I don't know exactly how much time had elapsed but I do know that it had been at least X seconds, I'll take off X. That X can be from the sum of any counts or could be from deducing that the time based on the actions on the floor.

For example, sideline throwin at midcourt. A2 throws to A1 in the FC with no defensive pressure. A1 dribbles back and forth across the court near the division line with no defensive pressure. He crosses the court 3 times, sideline to sideline, at a walking pace. Knowing that it takes at least 3 seconds or more to cross the court at a walk, I can take off 9 seconds. That is definite knowledge.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Oct 20th, 2004 at 01:34 PM]

For example, sideline throwin at midcourt. A2 throws to A1 in the FC with no defensive pressure. A1 dribbles back and forth across the court near the division line with no defensive pressure. He crosses the court 3 times, sideline to sideline, at a walking pace. Knowing that it takes <font color = red>at least</font> 3 seconds <font color = red>or more</font> to cross the court at a walk, I can take off 9 seconds. That is definite knowledge.

[/B][/QUOTE]I disagree completely with that. The only way that you can have definite knowledge is through an official's count of some type, or having some other type of official information available. Using your own estimate of time consumed is not considered having DEFINITE information relative to the time involved. It's a guess on your part- as you admitted above by using the terms "at least" and "or more". Those aren't definitive terms. If it took 3.5 seconds/trip, which is the "or more" part of your equation, you would have to add 10.5 seconds back on instead of 9 seconds.

No guessing allowed according to the rules covering this one.

How is Deb S doing? Hope her career is going well...

That is all you can do is learn from those situations. I am just stating when you are facing the clock you should keep an eye on it to make sure it starts. So usually either you or your partner should have an idea if the clock starts. I learned this more when I work college ball because of watching the shot clock. I now watch the clock any time it is in my field of vision.

Peace

I disagree completely with that. The only way that you can have definite knowledge is through an official's count of some type, or having some other type of official information available. Using your own estimate of time consumed is not considered having DEFINITE information relative to the time involved. It's a guess on your part- as you admitted above by using the terms "at least" and "or more". Those aren't definitive terms. If it took 3.5 seconds/trip, which is the "or more" part of your equation, you would have to add 10.5 seconds back on instead of 9 seconds.

No guessing allowed according to the rules covering this one. [/B][/QUOTE]

Definite does not equal precise. What you are describing is precise information.

If you know for sure that it took more than 10 seconds but not sure how much more, you have definite knowledge to allow you to take 10 seconds off the clock. You stop at 10 because you don't have further knowledge. You're not guessing, you're calculating based on basic actions.

This is not much different than the 0.3 seconds on a catch and shoot. There are certain actions that take a minimum amount of time to execute.

If you have no clue, of course you can't take anything off.

Definite does not equal precise. What you are describing is precise information.

If you know for sure that it took more than 10 seconds but not sure how much more, you have definite knowledge to allow you to take 10 seconds off the clock. You stop at 10 because you don't have further knowledge. You're not guessing, you're calculating based on basic actions.

[/B][/QUOTE]Camron, the purpose and intent of this rule is to have precise information before you do anything. You can only take 10 seconds off of the clock if you have definite, or precise knowledge that 10 seconds was the actual, exact time consumed. You can't take 10 seconds off if the actual time possibly may have been 11 seconds, 12 seconds, 13 seconds, etc. That's a guess and there's nothing in the book that will allow us to guess.

Jurassic, just to complicate matters further.....let's say that Team A trails by 2 points with 2 seconds to play. They inbound the ball, make a few passes, then hoist up a 3 that goes in. The problem.....the clock didn't start, and neither official had the prescence of mind to notice the clock. But......the inbounds pass, and the passes, and the release of the shot clearly took longer than 2 seconds to complete. Does your opinion remain that the officials can't declare the shot "no good" and the game over, because neither official had kept a mental count?

As for Deb S.......she quit officiating early last fall. So, the career.....not so good.

As I said before, anytime I'm in that situation I have a count going EVEN if I don't have a 5 or 10 second count situation happening.

I do this for two reasons. First to avoid being surprised by the horn. I want to anticipate it going off. Second to avoid a timer's error like the one you put forth.

Camron, the purpose and intent of this rule is to have precise information before you do anything. You can only take 10 seconds off of the clock if you have definite, or precise knowledge that 10 seconds was the actual, exact time consumed. You can't take 10 seconds off if the actual time possibly may have been 11 seconds, 12 seconds, 13 seconds, etc. That's a guess and there's nothing in the book that will allow us to guess. [/B][/QUOTE]

No, the purpose of the rule it to allow you to take time off the clock if you have any reliable information.

If you have a 10 second count that gets to 9, then a 5 second count in the frontcout that gets to 4, then the player dribbles around away from the dribbler for while before you notice the clock didn't start. You don't know how much time in total has elapsed, but you do know that at least 13 seconds passed by. You take off 13. Not precise, but definite. It's not an all or nothing deal. Again, its <B>definite</B> not <B>precise</B>.