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Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Originally posted by Nu1
Wow, Back In The Saddle! I did say it was just a thought:)

It seems your lengthy answer ultimately ended with, "depends." Which I'm seeing happens somewhat regularly. (I mean in the general sense, with all of our discussions/situations, not with Back In The Saddle specifically.)

So, now I have more to think about and I'm giving Saddle an A+ for an answer worthy of a college paper:)

It's "worthy" of more than that, Bitsy, if you get my drift!

Yeah, I realized later that I prolly shoulda held the long version in reserve. I think I will probably post some similar stuff in a different forum. It feels good so far. :)

Re: Re: Slip slidin' away

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
I instantly recognize this argument for what it is: a logical fallacy. To be precise, a fallacy often called slippery slope.

Since I'm currently teaching "Critical Thinking and Sound Reasoning" (essentially a Logic class), I'm ecstatic to see you recognizing common fallacies. I'm sad, however, to hear you've dropped the course -- again :(

Yeah, me too. Honestly it would have been a great time to take it, what with the presidential debates and all the other electioneering stuff going on. Such is life. BTW, if you start teaching a "Critical Thinking on the Court" class, I'm transferring! :)

Re: Slip slidin' away

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
This zen official recognizes that he must discover those guiding principles which will allow him to weigh each situation individually and determine the best course of action for each.

"Zen and the Art of Basketball Officiating". A sequel to the classic "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". Man, I miss my Virago 750.

Quote:

What level of ball is it?

As I implied in my original response, this is a big part of the answer. At lower levels, especially with a very inexperienced partner, I would go with the OOB with no hesitation. In a HS game, with a partner who should know better, I would probably go with the OOB -- with a lot of hesitation.

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
I disagree with the conclusion of ignoring the foul.

For many situations in the game, we could certainly have a discussion and find an uncalled violation that preceeded a foul. If no one blows the ball dead, you can't make it dead retroactively...even if it should have been.

This was the argument of Roy Williams a couple of years ago during an NCAA tournament game when he was coaching Kansas. I believe that they were playing Arizona. Kirk Heinrich travelled. He jumped off the floor about two inches when intending to throw a pass, but did not throw the pass. He returned to the floor with the ball. There was a floor level camera which clearly showed this. The covering official, the T, had a poor angle and did not call the violation. The C from across the court saw it. About 3 seconds later Heinrich dribbled to the top of the Key and was fouled. The T whistled the foul. The C immediately when over to him and they conferred. They wiped out the foul and called the travel. Since this happened with about 30 seconds left in the first half, Williams was still mad about it when the TV reporter interviewed him before he went to the lockerroom. He said something very similar to what you wrote above.

in conclusion the, the correct call would be to ignore the violation and continue with the foul, correct?

even though is was a jr. high girls game. i just want to make the correct call. thanks!

It depends on level of play and also depends on the amount of time between the violation and the foul. If there's an appreciable amount of time, then you have to say that it's just too late to call the violation. But if it's a matter of a second or maybe even 2, I still would call the violation and ignore the contact.

If it's a lower level of play, if it's a quick and easy fix, and if it's going to be easy to sell, I'm gonna go with the fix (i.e., get it right) rather than continue with the foul.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
I disagree with the conclusion of ignoring the foul.

For many situations in the game, we could certainly have a discussion and find an uncalled violation that preceeded a foul. If no one blows the ball dead, you can't make it dead retroactively...even if it should have been.

This was the argument of Roy Williams a couple of years ago during an NCAA tournament game when he was coaching Kansas. I believe that they were playing Arizona. Kirk Heinrich travelled. He jumped off the floor about two inches when intending to throw a pass, but did not throw the pass. He returned to the floor with the ball. There was a floor level camera which clearly showed this. The covering official, the T, had a poor angle and did not call the violation. The C from across the court saw it. About 3 seconds later Heinrich dribbled to the top of the Key and was fouled. The T whistled the foul. The C immediately when over to him and they conferred. They wiped out the foul and called the travel. Since this happened with about 30 seconds left in the first half, Williams was still mad about it when the TV reporter interviewed him before he went to the lockerroom. He said something very similar to what you wrote above.

I think that is a different beast. One official SAW the violation and was waiting to see if is partner was going to call it. Delayed whistle is all that is.

Going back and asking the official if such and such happened and then deciding it's a violation is quite different.