Excessively swinging of arms or elbows, violation question?

[jritchie]

if A1's shot is in flight, A2 swings elbow's excessively and you have a violation, how come we don't count the shot if it goes? is it because it's a violation on the offense, same as a travel, dd, etc..no matter if the shot was already on it's way.... Am i interpreting the rule correctly???

[Jurassic Referee]

Yup, you're interpreting it correctly. The ball is dead when the violation occurs, with an exception being an elbow violation by the non-throwing team when the ball is in the air. In that case, the ball remains alive after the whistle for the elbowing violation, you score the basket if it goes, and the shooting team will get a spot throw-in OOB at the closest spot when the try ends.

[jritchie]

whistle, open hand up to stop clock, wave off basket, elbow signal and #, point to spot where to take ball oob???

[cmathews]

our state hasn't sent us our books yet so bear with me here... is this a new interp of the elbows rule or was it that way last year too...it seems to me that once the shot is in the air, it shouldn't be blown dead for a violation, because if the same thing happened with contact and you had a T you wouldn't blow it dead...or if A2 pushed B1 you wouldn't blow it dead...it doesn't make good sense to me to blow it dead in this instance...

[ChuckElias]

You're right that if there were a foul while the try was in flight, the ball would remain live. However, this is the same interp from last year. An elbow violation on an offensive player causes the ball to become dead immediately, even if a try is in flight.

[cmathews]

ok I can go with that...it still doesn't make sense but then again we all know that it doesn't have to make sense...however to penalize the offense more for committing a violation than for a foul to me seems pretty lame...so now we will have coaches calling for their kids to make contact if they swing their elbows so that they can keep the bucket if the try is in flight LOL...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cmathews
our state hasn't sent us our books yet so bear with me here... is this a new interp of the elbows rule or was it that way last year too...it seems to me that once the shot is in the air, it shouldn't be blown dead for a violation, because if the same thing happened with contact and you had a T you wouldn't blow it dead...or if A2 pushed B1 you wouldn't blow it dead...it doesn't make good sense to me to blow it dead in this instance...

This interpretation has been in place since the penalty for a thrown elbow that missed was changed from a technical foul back to a violation in the 2002/03 rule book.

[cmathews]

I am in football mode..just checking the basketball site to keep up on things...I still don't think it should kill the ball. I am not arguing that it doesn't just that I really think the fed should change it...

[jritchie]

i didn't think it should be cancelled either, but i didn't want to say i didn't agree with the rules or someone might bite my head off again, by disagreeing with what the nfhs thinks....

[Stat-Man]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but it seems to me that once the offense commits a violation, the ball is always dead. So if A2 committs an elbowing violation while a try is in flight, the ball is dead even though it's on its way up.

[just another ref]

Has anyone ever called an elbow violation on a player who did not have the ball? Don't think I have ever seen one.

[Nevadaref]

It does seem strange that this violation appears to carry a stiffer penalty than a foul in this case (a try in flight). But there is no other way to do it. If you think about it, if the ball remained live, the basket would count; so, what would be the penalty for the violation?

When this offense was a T, the 2 FTs, the foul charged to the player, and the team foul counting toward the bonus were the punishment (which many thought was too severe), but now that it is a violation, if the try is successful and the rules allowed the basket to count, effectively there wouldn't be any punishment. This would be a big loophole.
Only if the try missed would the violating team lose something (the opportunity to rebound).
Since excessively swinging the elbows has been deemed an unsafe action by the NFHS, they are obligated to write the rules such that this action is punished whenever it occurs.


[Edited by Nevadaref on Oct 12th, 2004 at 04:00 AM]

[jritchie]

Originally posted by just another ref
Has anyone ever called an elbow violation on a player who did not have the ball? Don't think I have ever seen one.

A1 has the ball and is going off a screen from A2, B1 is trailing A1 around the screen, A2 throws a couple elbow attempts at B1 as they come by but miss! Elbow without the ball! I've seen that many times. Would that be the same thing, or would you have to call something else?

[Edited by jritchie on Oct 12th, 2004 at 11:01 AM]

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by jritchie

A1 has the ball and is going off a screen from A2, B1 is trailing A1 around the screen, A2 throws elbow at B1 as they come by! Elbow without the ball! I've seen that many times.

Sounds like contact was made and then this would be a foul... not a no contact, violation.

JARef is correct that usually the excessive swing of elbows is made by the player that has just rebounded the ball and is trying to clear the defenders away - by threatening them with several, undirected swinging elbows. Not that it couldn't happen without the ball but that is not where I have seen it.

[cmathews]

Nevada,
Yeah that makes sense. I hadn't considered the fact that they wouldn't be punished without killing the ball immediately. Thanks