in my jr. high game last night, i didn't "ball watch". at least that's what i asked my partner to watch for me. so, i feel good about that.

however, during some rebounding situations while i was trail. i did hear both coaches questioning my no calls on situations where there was pushing/over the back. i did see some of that as a trail official. but, i didn't call it. if i had been the lead, i would have called it. but, i put my trust in my partner.

the question is, should i have called pushing/over the back on situations when it occurs as a trail official or should i allow my partner, who is the lead, to call it?

most, if not all of the pushing/over the back occurred in the low post area, which is the lead's primary coverage area.

was i correct in not calling it?

thanks!

"Over the back" is never the leads call.

T or C.

Go get it.
 

JohnBark,
Not ball watching is a real fine attribute, but we still need to maintain court awareness.
Trusting your partner is an excellent mindset, but all partners are not equal.

You said you saw the illegal contact; you waited for your partner to get it. That's good! But your partner did not get it.

So, now we have a foul seen by both coaches and by you that wasn't called. This is not a good thing.

Go get that foul, if you think it was a foul! Your partner may have been screened, or may have glanced elsewhere. Your partner may not fully understand illegal contact.

Ball watching and helping your partner are not exactly the same thing. Ball watching is more like ignoring your primary area. Helping your partner is the reason you are on the floor. If the foul occurs in a 'tweener, shared area
and you know it's a foul, make that call.

mick

Sounds like JohnBark was working two-man.

My opinion, FWIW---if you see it and it's a foul, call it. Especially in two man on a rebound, partner may have been screened off the play. Now if it's right in front of partner and he passed, he probably saw it better than you. Of course, then you have to ask yourself why you're looking there anyway...

i've looked in the official manual for something or anything that states the T or C has the call on pushing/over the back, but i can't find it.

is that court coverage responsibility in the official manual? where is it? thanks for all your help!

In 2-whistle, if the contact happens on the T's side of the lane, it's the T's call -- the Lead is almost certainly straight-lined. If it happens on the Lead's side of the lane, then the Lead has to grab it.

It's a 3-whistle mentality, John.

The way some of the responses have been written don't cover some other common cases for 2-man.

It is possible that the lead and trail are on the same side when a shot is taken. So, saying lead take lead's side and trail take trail's would leave one side uncovered. It would be better said to say that the lead has rebounding on the side that he/she is on. The trail would cover the opposite side.

I'm gonna throw this out and see what people think.

In 2-whistle there are two issues that negatively impact the lead's ability to call the "over the back" on rebounding action in the paint.

First is the sheer number of bodies. There are usually 4-6 bodies there, often 8, sometimes 10. That can make it difficult to clearly see beyond the first 2-4 players in front of you. And it's impossible to focus on that many people, all of whom may be working for position.

Second is the angle, for rebounding action across the paint from the lead, the lead is often straightlined and would be guessing whether there was contact.

A third (at no extra charge ;)) is how close the lead is to the action. If he has closed down, he will likely be close enough that the action fills most of his field of vision.

On rebounding situations, the trail has to be aggressively refereeing the action in his half of the paint. This frees the lead to focus on his half which helps alleviate issues with the number of bodies and straightlining, and to a lesser extent, the field of vision issue.

But the trail also has to work smart. He's got to work for an angle that will allow him to see everybody in his half of the key and to avoid the straightlining.

? why not?
of course it's not an over the back but a push. But are you saying L should never call a push on a rebound? Why-because T has high and L is covering low?

This is one reason that on a shot, the trail should take a step towards the basket & watch the initial rebound activity. Far too often I see the trail take a step or two away from the basket, sometimes even as far as the division line, in anticipation of a defensive rebound & fast break.

In 3-whistle you've got two officials in a much better position to see through the play. The lead is too often straightlined on this play. It's different in 2-whistle. In 2-whistle, the lead has to get this.

With any 3-whistle crew I've been on, it's always been "all bets are off" on rebounding fouls - that whatever the foul, wherever it is in the paint, someone has to go get it. And it doesn't matter who calls it. Having said that, of course, if the lead is making ALL of the rebounding calls, there's a problem. But to say it's NEVER lead's call is incorrect. The lead's angles are often the same in 3-person as it is in 2-person.

Lead has strong side coverage on shots coming from trail's primary in 3 whistle because trail should be staying with the shooter.

Not so sure about that Dan.
 

This seems to be a feeling that is fading. I used to buy into this as well. The more camps I have attended I have been told that is really not true. The Lead sometimes is the only person that might see the two players right under the basket. I have been told that the Lead is probably the best person to make these calls. Not to say that the T or C cannot have a call, but it is far from "never" as it relates to the Lead Official making one.

Peace

Well said, Camron. I wasn't thinking about times when the L is ball-side. Good pick-up.

Of course it's a push. It's a push caused by torso to back contact that the L almost never has a good view of and the T or C (3 man) has the best view of. Very rarely is the L in good enough position to see this type of push.

The L should be looking for & taking the "real" pushes & shoves caused by arms during rebounding.

Re: Not so sure about that Dan.
 

I'll remember this for when I move to Chicago.

But for now I'm OK doing it my way.

Re: Re: Not so sure about that Dan.
 

Better remember it if you move to Indiana, too.

Re: Re: Re: Not so sure about that Dan.
 

You own a moving company??!!

;)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Not so sure about that Dan.
 

Nope...but if you're going to be moving often, maybe I should! ;)

when does this happen??
 

It is possible that the lead and trail are on the same side when a shot is taken.

Are we supposed to change sides back and forth as the lead official??? never been taught that one... i've seen some guys get a better view of the other side of the lane, by coming over a little to get a better view..but never should you have a lead and trail on the same side of the court in a two whistle game should you????? your supposed to always have your players boxed in from what i have always learned...that is why you have two of you out there, if the ball comes to the trail side of the post they are there to help out...but that is the main reason for the 3 man crew, to take care of those problems :)

Re: when does this happen??
 

Sure you should. When the ball settles on trail's side and there is action in the post, lead should come across and look back at and through the post.

Re: Re: Not so sure about that Dan.
 

Obviously you have to do what the powers that be tell you to do in your area. But this philosophy is not just coming from people that work in my area. This philosophy is being taught by officials that work over many parts of the country. If this was just a local issue I would have made that clear. Do not be surprised if you hear this from another source that is all. BTW I was told this at a camp outside of the area I live.

Pece

Re: when does this happen??
 

Absolutely, to add to what Lotto offered.

Lead has primary coverage of everthing below the FT line and inside the 3-point arc...even opposite side. To cover that well, the lead must cross over and look back across the key...there's no way to get a good view across the paint. The lead never goes very far past the lane line on the opposite side. The trail shifts high and towards the center of the court to cover the backside (where the lead temporarily vacated). The lead will always return to his original side in transition unless the trail gets trapped and is force to the other side.

Re: Re: when does this happen??
 

Actually trail has lane line to side line opposite lead UNLESS lead comes over. They changed that two years ago.;)

My view in 2 whistle.

1) it does not matter what side each referee is on or if they are both on same side.

2) Lead should be responsible for strong side rebounds (strongside is side lead is on)

3) Trail is responsible for perimeter and weaksside rebounds.

I have found this very helpful. I learned this years ago from the NBA system. It works well and allows to still have specific court coverage. It prevents double whistles where you dont need them (middle of paint is fair game for both just like anyother time)

There is nothing wrong with lead calling the from behind pushes on rebounds. It makes no sense to have a play right in front of lead and not call it. especially when lead is there and with the best angle.

Re: when does this happen??
 

Strong side officiating is taught by many a league. There is nothing wrong with having two guys on same side of floor. It is even encouraged in the NF manual if I remember right. Lead needs to get across and ref where he needs to when the ball or low post players are there. It is the best way to ref a 2 person game

Re: Re: Re: when does this happen??
 

Fair enough...I'm just expecting the lead to come over when the ball is in low and near the paint on trail side.

I would say .... trail has lane line to side line opposite lead UNTIL lead comes over.