I know many officials give a prelimiary foul signal when its a block. But I have been told by experienced varsity officials not to give a preliminary signal for other fouls such as holding and pushing. Yet I see it done all the time. Is there a best practice on this?

I cannot think of one time I would not give a blocking foul when I call a foul.

You have to listen to folks around you.

I give a peliminary signal most of the time. And yes I give a signal for holding or push most of the time. Especially when it is unclear as to what happen or I have to sell the call.

Each area is different, but I for the most part recommed everyone give one at least some kind of signal at the NF level. College of course is different.

Peace

Rut, I do too. I think that coaches and players what to know what you're calling the foul for. Preliminary signals for blocking, pushing and holding are quite common. I see fewer preliminary signals for illegal use of the hands.

If it is obvious what they do, I might not signal anything. Especially that we do not have to birddog anymore.

Peace

The preliminary signals that you need to give are block / charge, double foul, intentional / flagrant, and technical. Everything else is optional.

As was said -- if it is an obvious foul (other than the ones listed above) there is really no reason to signal. I usually signal illegal screens as well, since those are off-ball calls which generally the rest of the gym doesn't see.

I've always been taught to signal the nature of the foul at the spot...with or without birddogging. While I don't signal 100% of the time, I do most of the time if only for clarity. There are some obvious ones for which I sometimes omit the preliminary signal....and then only sometimes.

and as usual, "when in Rome".......

If your assigner wants prelimnary signals, then do it!

Jeff -- I agree with you about 90% of the time, but this one falls into the 10%. There is one situation where a prelim is a huge NO-NO!! I'm not feeling Socratic today (or pedantic either) so I'll just say it right out -- the double whistle. I have trained myself to hold my prelim until I look at my partner, because I'm terrible at hearing a double. So unless it's so obvious that the guy in the back row could have called it correctly, I tweet and fist, then look at partner, then prelim and birddog, if appropriate. Since I quit the automatic preliminary signal, I've not had a single blarge. Thank goodness.

I don't understand why anyone in NFHS would not want a preliminary signal given. Pretty clear in the officials manual that it's to be given every time.

Z

JMO, Z-man, but sometimes it's just not necessary. If A1 drives to the basket and is fouled in the act of shooting, does it really matter if it's a block, a push, or a "hack"? Everybody in the building knows that the shooter was fouled, and nobody cares what you call it. In those cases, I usually will just give the fist and then give a signal at the table. That's just me, and I know it's not exactly by the book, but I'm comfortable with it. If you don't need to communicate anything, then why bother? Again, that's just me.

Juulie,

I am still going to give a preliminary signal when there is a double whistle. I am just not going to do it very quickly. Once we realize who is taking the call, I think you still have to signal to everyone what you have. Because if there is a difference with a block and a charge and two officials have a whistle, you still have to let everyone know what you have. But I agree you are not in a hurry. But most situations you still should signal. But for this discussion, I was not really commenting on how you give it, I still think it is required in most cases.

Peace

I agree with Chuck. If you have a one on one situation and there is clearly a foul or contact is so obvious, then there is really no reason to signal if you call a foul. I have never been told to do that in those situations.

Peace

I agree with this completely. I was thinking preliminary signal meant rhgt that instant. Waiting to check with partner and then signalling makes sense. In fact, it would be a little cruel to whistle, confer with partner, and then walk clear to the table before letting anyone know what you're going with. In that situation, it seems like the best thing to signal as soon as you and your partner are "of one mind."

<i><b> Communication </i></b>
I can think of lot's of reasons, but mainly for my partners. If they're doing they're job, they weren't watching my primary. Now they know what I called. It often matters to the coaches. "Hey ref, what did your partner just call, it looked clean to me?" "He called a block coach."

At NFHS state tournaments, there is often a very, very fine line between the ability of officials. An official who fails to give a preliminary signal every time, might just give one of the evaluators a reason to make a delineation between two very good officials.

Z

They're not officiating your primary, but they see that the ball is there and you had a foul on a drive to the basket. If you don't come out with a PC signal, they also know that you're shooting FTs. That's really all they need to know, or probably care to know. You really think your partner cares if it's a push or a block?


"Coach, he got a lot better look at it than we did. I'm sure he'll tell you exactly what he had."

Well, since I've worked the state tournament exactly once in the 7 seasons that I've worked a full HS varsity schedule and the 3 seasons that I've worked a full college varsity schedule, I could give a flying fig about what the observers think. B/c they're not observing me!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Quote: At NFHS state tournaments, there is often a very, very fine line between the ability of officials. An official who fails to give a preliminary signal every time, might just give one of the evaluators a reason to make a delineation between two very good officials. Well, since I've worked the state tournament exactly once in the 7 seasons that I've worked a full HS varsity schedule and the 3 seasons that I've worked a full college varsity schedule, I could give a flying fig about what the observers think. B/c they're not observing me!

That's fine Chuck, do what works for you. My only point was that I don't think anyone could ever fault you for doing the mechanics by the book. I can think of times when leaving out the preliminary signal could lead to confusion.

Z

Giving the prelim foul signal is not the same as telling your partner what happens with the ball next. In fact, I would much rather know where the ball is going, who gets it, are we shooting, rather than know *what* the foul is.

I'm not all that concernd with dealing with the coaches in this sitch.

The one point I see missing is vocalizing your call.

If you say, "Hold," "Hit," "Push," or more descriptive things like, "Body," " You got em in the head," the preliminary signal is pretty redundant.

I can see stressing a hand check, block/charge, or selling a push OOBs, but most calls don't need it.

Your voice is much more important, than a preliminary signal.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zebraman

Quote:

That's fine Chuck, do what works for you. My only point was that I don't think anyone could ever fault you for doing the mechanics by the book. I can think of times when leaving out the preliminary signal could lead to confusion. Z

Z,

You can't go wrong following the book.

I think you can note that most college officials will have college mechanics in their bags when they hit the high school floor.

Many high school officials will not even think about Section 230.b,c,<B>d</B>,e,h.

<I>They</I> tell us to speed up these games, and eliminating some redundancies is one of our ways to decrease dead ball time.

Chuck doesn't even stop to clear a net! ;)
Let's go!!! Ball in!!

Personally, I may give a preliminary signal 30-40% of the time.

mick

Voice never replaces signals. There are often times that your voice can't be heard where a signal can almost always be seen.


Even on a 1:1 drive to the basket, some are not so obvious. What looks like a cleanly blocked shot to a coach/spectator may actually be all arm...with some body contact similar to some that you've been letting go. Is the coach going to think you're being inconsistent with the body contact since that's all he saw? A preliminary signal of "illegal use of hands" can defuse the situation before it even begeins. That tells the coach it was something different.

The coach usually does the little throw the head back and spin when they don't agree with your call. They are reacting to the whistle, not your signal. You can come out with a kick signal and it won't change what the coach WANTS your call to be.

I've came out with a player control foul WITH a preliminary signal and the coach did not settle down UNTIL I reported it to the table. It is a redundant mechanic that is fast becoming obsolete.

Here's a picture of Chuck giving his big "BLOCK!!!" prelim signal:

http://www.alittlemoretotheright.com...ons/banana.gif

Here's a picture of Chuck giving his big "BLOCK!!!" prelim signal:

http://www.alittlemoretotheright.com...ons/banana.gif

[/B][/QUOTE]Chuck grew a little while he was in Florida. Must be the water.

True enough, Z-man. Can't argue with that.

Are you on vacation this week? YOu've got way, way too much time on your hands!!

That's obviously not me -- he's using closed fists. My mechanics are better than that.

How many people do their mechanics "by the book?" From what I've seen not many. Changing little things and letting your own personality is OK to me. I think what some are trying to say is communication is key. Whether it is a voice or a preliminary signal, I want my partners to know what I called and I want to know what they call. I couldn't really put a percentage on what I do most. If someone is going to the basket and is fouled I probably will use my voice. It is like everyone in the gym sees contact and knows what the call is. When they don't know what the call is then a prelim can come in handy. I had a college supervisor that wanted verbal communication immediately. His theory is your call has more credibility when everyone knows that you know what you have immediately. He also wanted the number of the offending player called out immediately too.
I was doing a game last night and called a foul on a kid. He asked me what he did and I told him specifically (you hit him on his right arm like this when he went to the hoop). He started to smile and I did too. I asked him "what you didn't think I knew what you did." Maybe he just thought I made the call just because it might have looked bad. It was funny. Not Ha Ha funny but funny anyway. :)

This is a good mechanic for younger/newer officials to add to their repertoire.

By verbalizing the color and number, we are imprinting information that we will need in our short jog to the foul reporting area.

mick

What's key is keeping the assignor happy. If he or she wants prelims, give 'em. If they want voice, use it. If not, don't. Pure and simple.

I've found that to be true as well, Mick. In addition, if FTs are to be shot, I will verbalize my shooter. That way my partner can keep track of him/her for me.

Speaking of verbalizing the shooter's number, here's a little story from camp this summer. It was a 3-whistle camp and I was with two very good officials. We worked well together and had a good game.

In this particular sitch, Team B has just scored a basket. A1 inbounds the ball to A2 and A2 begins to dribble upcourt. B1 is guarding A2 rather loosely, just sort of walking backwards upcourt to keep an eye on A2. A1 is moving upcourt faster than A2 to get into his offensive position.

I am Center, table side, and I am watching the offense set up and making sure the defense lets them move through the lane. Meanwhile, my partner at Trail -- still in the backcourt -- blows a foul against B1. I know that we're in the bonus, so I immediately try to find our shooter. No problem. The only other player in the backcourt is the dribbler, A2. I keep an eye on him so that when my partner turns around from the table, I can confirm his shooter if he's forgotten.

Only problem is, partner puts A1 on the line. I catch his eye and point to the dribbler, he shakes me off. So we're going with A1, but I have no idea why.

Until we watch the tape.

As A1 ran past B1 to get to his offensive spot, B1 subtlely leaned sideways and planted a shoulder right into A1's chest. But b/c I was watching (far) off-ball, I didn't know who had been fouled. A quick verbalization from my partner would've eliminated any confusion, and made me more comfortable; although fortunately, he was on top of things and had the right shooter anyway.

FWIW. Probably not much. . .

Good sitch.