Here's a game which I wasn't involved in, and didn't even see, but was described to me by the refs who worked it. Two weeks later, I'm still wondering what I would have done.

Team A, up by 40, still pressing in the last 3 minutes of the game. Coach B is complaining loudly, but Coach A isn't budging. Finally with 2 minutes left in the game, Coach B calls a time-out, and tells her girls to inbound the ball and then immediately hand the ball to a team A player. The girls did this for the last two minutes. Coach A had the onions to complain to the refs about Team B's sportsmanlike attitude! He wanted the refs to call this handing-off thing a "travesty" and give them a technical. Sheez. Ref replied, "I can't make you take the press off, and I can't make her keep playing against it." I think this is about as much as the refs can do. What do you all think.

The refs did the right thing in that situation.

Something similar that happened to an official that I know is that Team B would always keep one player under the basket they were trying to score at no matter what. Coach A complained, but the official explained that in the rules that player is allowed to do that, and there's nothing we as officials can do about it.

Although this behaviour is somewhat unsportmanlike, it is way to minor to warrant a technical foul.

I think that's all you can do, Juulie. I mean, what else could you do? I don't think a T for "travesty" is a good move here. The losing coach was making his point in a legal way, how can you penalize him for it?

In fact, I saw something similar once in the NBA All-Star game. I forget the year, but the West team was winning big. In the last 30 seconds or so, an East player stole the ball and took it in for a fabulous dunk. Magic Johnson happened to be the guy who was inbounding the ball after the dunk (his team was winning, remember) and he just passed it to the next East player coming down the court. So the next East player also took it in for a fabulous dunk. Magic inbounded it to the next East guy. . . for about the last 30 seconds of the game. Obviously different, b/c nobody really cares about who wins that game, but the point is, if you want to give your opponent the ball, how -- by rule -- can the ref stop you?

I agree with you, Chuck, and I can't think of anything I'd have done differently from the refs who were there. It's just an interesting situation to think about.

The other factor in the whole thing is that this was a huge tournament with a lot of teams from all over the place and a very high level of play. Anyone in that tourney should have expected the possibility of getting blown out of the water. I think the winning coach was being a little obnoxious by leaving the press on, but I don't think it was really a huge sportsmanship issue. The losing team was an all-star team in an all-star tournament, and should have expected the possibility of not being the best team there.

To me, it would have been different if it had been a local rec league with lots of players who were in it for the exercise, and one classics team playing down. But in those situations, there is often a no-press rule, anyway.

I still think Coach A was a jerk.

Juulie, I disagree with you. That kind of behavior by a coach is unforgiveable and inexplicable. The tournament should not invite that coach back until he changes his ways. Blowouts happen and are to be expected. But continuing to press in that situation is definitely unsportsmanlike and the sign of a poor coach. Is that what the tournament wants to foster?

"Unforgiveable"? Come on. It was poor sportsmanship, but he didn't tell his kids to go and kill somebody. It showed little class, or perhaps just showed that the coach got caught up in the action. I've witnessed situations like this, where the losing coach made a comment to the winning coach and a light sort of went on over the winning coach's head. And then he pulled the press off.

Admittedly, that didn't happen here. But I don't think we should blow it out of proportion and say it's unforgiveable. It's poor judgment.

OK, Chuck, I can forgive him. (Does that make you happy?) But it is unsportsmanlike, classless and a tournament doesn't have to tolerate it. Perhaps I am sensitive to the issue having coached so much AAU ball and having been on both the winning and losing side. Coaches that do what he did do not last very long any way.

Yup, I'm happy. I agree with your second sentence completely. No reason to form a lynch mob, tho. That's all I was getting at.

I think I would have done by the same thing as coach B, but started with 3 minutes left in the game!

Coach B could also ask coach A to sub in all his players that haven't yet scored and "we'll make sure they scor ethis game."

Chuck, please no histrionics. I wasn't forming a lynch mob. I was suggesting banning those types of coaches from your tournament. The other coach shouldn't have to "ask" him to stop the press. That's what I was getting at.

When I was living upstate NY I had the pleasure of assisting the Schenectady High Coach (DiNallo) with an AAU team that made it to the nationals. We had a 7 Foot 15 year old (Craig Forth now at Syracuse), James Thomas (now at Texas) and Lionel Chalmers (Xavier of Ohio), among others. There were times we could have blown teams out by 100 points, but we didn't. We emptied our bench and let the other team keep their pride. We didn't continue to press when a team was down by that many points.

Making a lot of friends today, eh Chuck!?! :D

Jeez, show a softer side of yourself for one day, and it's like blood in the water. Forget I ever mentioned any of it. In fact, you know what? It is unforgiveable. The guy should never be allowed to coach again! In fact, he should never be allowed around children again! And another thing. Officials who disagree with other officials are A-holes!! Yeah, in fact, all officials are A-holes! That's right, officials shouldn't be allowed around children either!!

Everybody happy now? :rolleyes: Forget it. I'll leave the "toning down" lectures to Juulie.

If it makes you feel any better, Chuck, you're short too.

Never said there was anything wrong with disagreeing, just yelling at refs when you do disagree.

That's a good idea, 'cause you have toned down a damn thing all day! :)

Actually, I thought you instigated most of it! :D

Hey JR, being short isn't all that bad....you can get into places at kid's prices.

Once again -- and for the last time -- here's your actual original quote:

This was my only point. Disagreeing does not make one an a-hole. I think we agree on that. I just thought you could've said it a little more calmly. Now I really am done.

I have a slightly different opinion here. In a game with a lack of sportsmanship and class like there was in this game, tempers can get the best of everyone, it obviously angered coach A. I think this could be one of those rare times when the official brings both coaches together to try to reach some sort of an understanding on how to finish the last few minutes of the game with sportsmanship and class. If it is apparant that neither can, then it would be the perfect time to get the coaches to agree to shorten the length of the last period and end the game right there to end any chance of someone losing their temper and doing something stupid. The outcome's already decided and both coaches have made their points, if the game's gonna become an ego war, just end it and move on.

Disagreeing does not make one an a-hole. I think we agree on that.

[/B][/QUOTE]Well, I don't want to be an a-hole, so I'll disagree. Does that mean that agreeing makes one an a-hole? :confused:

Disagree. :D

It's not our job to tell anybody how to coach their team. Our job is to just neutrally call what happens, without passing our personal moral judgement on anybody.

[/B][/QUOTE]Disagree. :D

It's not our job to tell anybody how to coach their team. Our job is to just neutrally call what happens, without passing our personal moral judgement on anybody. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with you there, but there are times when minor irritants can flare up, and I think this is a chance to nip a possible incident in the bud. Both teams clearly don't want to play under the conditions that developed, so if neither coach wants to change the conditions, ballgame. No need to finish the game under such animousity, especially with the outcome already decided.

Im not in a particularly "toning down" mood today, so you guys can just stew in your own juices. So there.

I agree.

Disagree. :D

It's not our job to tell anybody how to coach their team. Our job is to just neutrally call what happens, without passing our personal moral judgement on anybody. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with you there, but there are times when minor irritants can flare up, and I think this is a chance to nip a possible incident in the bud. Both teams clearly don't want to play under the conditions that developed, so if neither coach wants to change the conditions, ballgame. No need to finish the game under such animousity, especially with the outcome already decided. [/B][/QUOTE]I think that the actual response made by one of the original refs was pretty much dead on. He just didn't really have a rule available to him that he can use, unless he wants to get into the "travesty of the game" thingy- so there's not much he could do. There's no rule prohibiting a team from pressing, and there also isn't a rule that says that you can't commit a deliberate turnover. You certainly can get the coaches together and tell them that you don't want them trash-talking each other, and you also can nail them real quick if they try to do so. Other than that, I think that your best course of action is just to make sure that you call what you have to, keep a lid on everything and get the game over asap. Then write it up, and let the league worry about it. It should be their problem, not your's, anyway. Jmo.

Chuck, even Juulie won't save your butt. What does that tell you? :D

Uhmmm...what's the question?

http://alumni.hjc.edu.sg/images/scratchh1.gif

I agree with you there, but there are times when minor irritants can flare up, and I think this is a chance to nip a possible incident in the bud. Both teams clearly don't want to play under the conditions that developed, so if neither coach wants to change the conditions, ballgame. No need to finish the game under such animousity, especially with the outcome already decided. [/B][/QUOTE]I think that the actual response made by one of the original refs was pretty much dead on. He just didn't really have a rule available to him that he can use, unless he wants to get into the "travesty of the game" thingy- so there's not much he could do. There's no rule prohibiting a team from pressing, and there also isn't a rule that says that you can't commit a deliberate turnover. You certainly can get the coaches together and tell them that you don't want them trash-talking each other, and you also can nail them real quick if they try to do so. Other than that, I think that your best course of action is just to make sure that you call what you have to, keep a lid on everything and get the game over asap. Then write it up, and let the league worry about it. It should be their problem, not your's, anyway. Jmo. [/B][/QUOTE]

Jurassic, I basically agree with you on most of the points, and obviously I wasn't there. As an official it's not my business how anyone wants to coach their team, but it is my business to manage the game. In this case a team has basically quit playing by giving up the ball to protest the other team's press, which, thus, prevents the other team from working on its presses. Nothing can be gained by either team in this situation, and the game could further degenerate easily with a hard foul here or there or a confrontation between the coaches. I'm not suggesting forfeiting the game, but rather conferring with the coaches and discussing shortening the length of the quarter as per Rule 5.5.3. At least doing so would address a situation which I feel shouldn't be ignored, but again jmo.