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-   -   More Pacers/Pistons call/no call (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/13867-more-pacers-pistons-call-no-call.html)

OverAndBack Thu May 27, 2004 11:22am

Since you have to jump through hoops to read the whole article, the relevant section here from Salon.com:

Quote:


The latest example of NBA officiating inconsistency -- to use a kind word, rather than, say, incompetence or insanity -- came at the end of the Pistons 85-78 win over the Pacers in Game 3 of the Eastern Conference finals Wednesday night.

Trailing by six with about 15 seconds left and hoping for a four-point play, Reggie Miller of the Pacers pump-faked Richard Hamilton into the air, then jumped into him as he launched a 3-point shot. No call. Miller complained to the refs, as is his wont.

"When Reggie Miller got Rip Hamilton up in the air and drew the contact I thought I was going to hear a whistle," said ESPN color man Doc Rivers as Miller argued fruitlessly. "What the officials are saying is that Rip came down straight and Reggie drew the contact. He [Miller] jumped into him."

That's right. But the thing is, precisely 100 percent of the time that play happens, a foul is called on the defender. Every single time. Except at the end of a playoff game, I guess. Because evidently the rules change at such a time.

The rule book is unambiguous to the point of absurdity. It should have been a foul on Miller.

Didn't see the play in question, but I thought I'd throw this out there for discussion.


Adam Thu May 27, 2004 11:43am

My understanding is that this play is generally best no-called, by rule. Unless the defender is knocked to the floor, there is no advantage gained by the shooter jumping into a player if you don't call a defensive foul.

Salon is wrong.

Dan_ref Thu May 27, 2004 01:04pm


That play was vintage Miller: get the defender in the air, jump into him, draw the whistle. I always roll my eyes when there's a whistle on these. The no call brought a smile to my face - it was a game ender & Miller was LIVID. At the final buzzer he booted the ball into the crowd.

A great no call, the only thing inconsistent about it is Miller has gotten way too many of these calls in the past. He didn't last night. In fact Miller was so shocked there was no whistle he forgot to fall on his @ss.

blindzebra Thu May 27, 2004 01:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

That play was vintage Miller: get the defender in the air, jump into him, draw the whistle. I always roll my eyes when there's a whistle on these. The no call brought a smile to my face - it was a game ender & Miller was LIVID. At the final buzzer he booted the ball into the crowd.

A great no call, the only thing inconsistent about it is Miller has gotten way too many of these calls in the past. He didn't last night. In fact Miller was so shocked there was no whistle he forgot to fall on his @ss.

Miller is my least favorite player EVER. He pushes off, grabs, holds, jumps into and kicks his legs into the defender all the time. If games were actually called by the rules, Reggie would have been out of the league a long time ago.

whistleone Thu May 27, 2004 01:18pm

I found it funny that, in a comparison between Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton on Sportscenter, Reggie commented on the similarities in their games and even mentioned the clutching and holding that they both do on defense. Guess Reggie's getting a little taste of his own medicine now...

blindzebra Thu May 27, 2004 01:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by whistleone
I found it funny that, in a comparison between Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton on Sportscenter, Reggie commented on the similarities in their games and even mentioned the clutching and holding that they both do on defense. Guess Reggie's getting a little taste of his own medicine now...
Actually, they were talking about the chucking and holding they do on OFFENSE. If the defender is not going to run into the pick, Miller will pull them into the screener. He will lock up and then push off to create space.

mick Thu May 27, 2004 01:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

...The no call brought a smile to my face ....

Dan,
I am waiting for the other shoe to drop.(ie, Will the official get spanked for that call?)

I have been enjoying the lunch bucket work of the Nets, Pacers, and Pistons. They are not always pretty, but they sure seem to play hard.

mick



blindzebra Thu May 27, 2004 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

...The no call brought a smile to my face ....

Dan,
I am waiting for the other shoe to drop.(ie, Will the official get spanked for that call?)

I have been enjoying the lunch bucket work of the Nets, Pacers, and Pistons. They are not always pretty, but they sure seem to play hard.

mick



Did they get spanked after the same no-call when Peja jumped in against Minnesota?

mick Thu May 27, 2004 01:48pm

Dunno.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
Did they get spanked after the same no-call when Peja jumped in against Minnesota?
blindzebra,
I do not know that happened.
My point was that I do not trust my knowledge the NBA rules.
mick


OverAndBack Thu May 27, 2004 01:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
My understanding is that this play is generally best no-called, by rule. Unless the defender is knocked to the floor, there is no advantage gained by the shooter jumping into a player if you don't call a defensive foul.

Salon is wrong.

Would you ever call a defensive foul in that instance?

blindzebra Thu May 27, 2004 01:57pm

Re: Dunno.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
Did they get spanked after the same no-call when Peja jumped in against Minnesota?
blindzebra,
I do not know that happened.
My point was that I do not trust my knowledge the NBA rules.
mick


They only let about 9 guys ref at this point anyway, so I doubt anyone of them will get axed over what is, by rule, the correct call.

Jurassic Referee Thu May 27, 2004 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
[/B]
I have been enjoying the lunch bucket work of the Nets, Pacers, and Pistons. They are not always pretty, but they sure seem to play hard.

[/B][/QUOTE]Lunch bucket? Is that another way to say "b-o-r-i-n-g"? Hell, last night, I even got up and took Spike for a walk during the game.

PS-Spike is my wife's pet Siamese fighting fish. Not to be confused with Vesta, the Princess Warrior- our main dog-, and Gizmo- our back-up dog. The game put both of them to sleep.

Adam Thu May 27, 2004 02:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by OverAndBack
Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
My understanding is that this play is generally best no-called, by rule. Unless the defender is knocked to the floor, there is no advantage gained by the shooter jumping into a player if you don't call a defensive foul.

Salon is wrong.

Would you ever call a defensive foul in that instance?

Maybe, depends on the play. I didn't see the play, but I've seen Miller do it enough times to have a good idea of what happened. If the defense jumps at a clean trajectory, and the shooter jumps at an other than normal angle to initiate contact (an angle that is not a normal jump shot trajectory), it's generally a no-call for body contact. I might see a defensive foul if the defender's hand finds its way to the shooter's arm or wrist.
If anything, Miller's play is a player control foul. Most likely, no-call is the best unless someone ends up on the floor because of it. Note that Miller's flop does not count.

mick Thu May 27, 2004 02:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
If anything, Miller's play is a player control foul. Most likely, no-call is the best unless someone ends up on the floor because of it. Note that Miller's flop does not count.
Snaqwells,
Your mind's eye saw that play very well, indeed.

I would love to see an offensive foul called on that play at that level, but I think I will not.
mick


mick Thu May 27, 2004 02:43pm

Boring?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
...Lunch bucket? Is that another way to say "b-o-r-i-n-g"? Hell, last night, I even got up and took Spike for a walk during the game.

PS-Spike is my wife's pet Siamese fighting fish. Not to be confused with Vesta, the Princess Warrior- our main dog-, and Gizmo- our back-up dog. The game put both of them to sleep.

JR,
Was it raining that hard?
Sounds fishy.
mick


SMEngmann Thu May 27, 2004 02:56pm

I just want to chime in about morons like the guy from Salon thinking that they have a clue about the rules, officiating and officiating philosophy in general. This guy, who hasn't officiated so much as a 3rd grade girls game judging by his comments, thinks he has the knowledge to blast the refs and influence the public about how bad NBA officials are. Clearly, there is no concept of advantage-disadvantage within his post. Imagine what would happen at the NBA level if all incidental contact that by rule could be called a foul were called a foul without any exercize of judgement. Ignorant attacks such as this on an NBA official reflect poorly on the entire officiating community.

Hawks Coach Thu May 27, 2004 05:34pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:

Miller is my least favorite player EVER. He pushes off, grabs, holds, jumps into and kicks his legs into the defender all the time. If games were actually called by the rules, Reggie would have been out of the league a long time ago.
Whoa Nellie! Are you posting as a ref or a fanboy?

I ain't a Pacers fan by any stretch, and Miller does all of this. But that doesn't make him that different from the rest of the league, except he has learned how to hide it and get away with it. Oh, and he is a helluva player. Probably hit more clutch shots than any active player.

Now I would agree that somehow Miller has gotten away with alot over the years. When he got no-called last night, I was glad to see it happen, especially watching the hand gestures from the official indicating that Miller jumped into the defender and not vice-versa. And I commented to my son that I really don't understand how he got away with that leg kick all those years, especially in this age where it is all reviewed post-game on video. You would have thought the no-calls would have started years ago.

blindzebra Thu May 27, 2004 05:49pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:

Miller is my least favorite player EVER. He pushes off, grabs, holds, jumps into and kicks his legs into the defender all the time. If games were actually called by the rules, Reggie would have been out of the league a long time ago.
Whoa Nellie! Are you posting as a ref or a fanboy?

I ain't a Pacers fan by any stretch, and Miller does all of this. But that doesn't make him that different from the rest of the league, except he has learned how to hide it and get away with it. Oh, and he is a helluva player. Probably hit more clutch shots than any active player.

Now I would agree that somehow Miller has gotten away with alot over the years. When he got no-called last night, I was glad to see it happen, especially watching the hand gestures from the official indicating that Miller jumped into the defender and not vice-versa. And I commented to my son that I really don't understand how he got away with that leg kick all those years, especially in this age where it is all reviewed post-game on video. You would have thought the no-calls would have started years ago.
I stopped being a fan of the NBA a long time ago, it coincided with me becoming an official, imagine that!:D

Miller just illustrates so well, what I hate about the NBA.
Kind of like when Jordan pushed off and hit the shot against Utah, right in front of Ed Rush who was about to become the top dog of the NBA officials.;)

gsf23 Thu May 27, 2004 10:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I ain't a Pacers fan by any stretch, and Miller does all of this. But that doesn't make him that different from the rest of the league, except he has learned how to hide it and get away with it. Oh, and he is a helluva player. Probably hit more clutch shots than any active player.

Jordan hit nine game winning shots in his career, Reggie has hit 22.

Dan_ref Fri May 28, 2004 08:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I ain't a Pacers fan by any stretch, and Miller does all of this. But that doesn't make him that different from the rest of the league, except he has learned how to hide it and get away with it. Oh, and he is a helluva player. Probably hit more clutch shots than any active player.

Jordan hit nine game winning shots in his career, Reggie has hit 22.

Interesting...where did you get this stat from?

Adam Fri May 28, 2004 09:15am

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I ain't a Pacers fan by any stretch, and Miller does all of this. But that doesn't make him that different from the rest of the league, except he has learned how to hide it and get away with it. Oh, and he is a helluva player. Probably hit more clutch shots than any active player.

Jordan hit nine game winning shots in his career, Reggie has hit 22.

Jordan has 6 rings. How many for Reggie? How many of Reggie's game winning shots came in the NBA finals? How many series winning shots did he make? How many game winning steals did Jordan make? Reggie?

BigGref Fri May 28, 2004 10:58am

Ts
 
I am going to change the subject slightly, but it still pertains to the series.

Why has Rasheed Walace, Ben Wallace, Jermaine ONeal, or Larry Brown not got hit with a T in this series? I am personally stunned by these no calls. When I am watching these games with my family they usually turn to me and ask why something was called or no called, 95% of the time I can give some type of explination (btw this is an excellent study in the offseason, helps when you have to explain to coaches), now in this series I have seen these guys be the whinniest group of players, almost as much as the Lakers. Worst of all was Rasheed Wallace, who dances around throwing fists and arms everywhere when he disagrees with a call. And I used to be a Larry Brown fan but he is catching the bug, I heard on National TV his comments to an official, something like "that is the same B.S. that almost cost us the game 2 days ago," among other tantrums.

OK, that was my beef, now I would like to know how the league can tell officials to let these guys be maniacs, I beleive that it will hurt these officials and the integrity of the games itself. Here I am assuming that Stern and Nunn had some powwow that said to the officials to let them show off a little, don't be on the T quick.

I think that now they know this is backfiring a little bit from what I saw last night with the Lakers/Wolves Game. I was relieved to see them use the Technical effectively throughout the game. So I am looking forward to a more controled game tonight, unless the league continues this which will only lead to something bad that they don't want happening, stars out of big games for fighting!

WHEW!

Jurassic Referee Fri May 28, 2004 11:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by BigGref
When I am watching these games with my family they usually turn to me and ask why something was called or no called, 95% of the time I can give some type of explination


You're way better than I am. I don't have a clue why something is a travel sometimes, but the same thing is not a travel another time. Or what constitutes a foul, even. For the life of me, I can't figure out what contact is allowed on a drive or a rebound, and what isn't. The same thing applies to the moaning & groaning, whining, dancing, trash-talking, etc that's so prevalent now in the NBA. Sometimes, it looks like it's allowed, and sometimes it's nailed right away. There's gotta be guidelines, but I've never been able to figure them out.

OverAndBack Fri May 28, 2004 11:51am

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
Jordan hit nine game winning shots in his career, Reggie has hit 22.
I guess Reggie's a better player, then. :rolleyes:

Camron Rust Fri May 28, 2004 01:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I ain't a Pacers fan by any stretch, and Miller does all of this. But that doesn't make him that different from the rest of the league, except he has learned how to hide it and get away with it. Oh, and he is a helluva player. Probably hit more clutch shots than any active player.

Jordan hit nine game winning shots in his career, Reggie has hit 22.

You don't need game winning shots when you're not trailing by 1 on the last shot. I'll take someone who puts the game out of reach for the other team over someone who has to save it at the buzzer.

Adam Fri May 28, 2004 01:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I ain't a Pacers fan by any stretch, and Miller does all of this. But that doesn't make him that different from the rest of the league, except he has learned how to hide it and get away with it. Oh, and he is a helluva player. Probably hit more clutch shots than any active player.

Jordan hit nine game winning shots in his career, Reggie has hit 22.

You don't need game winning shots when you're not trailing by 1 on the last shot. I'll take someone who puts the game out of reach for the other team over someone who has to save it at the buzzer.

Well put, Cameron. It's a classic example of a seemingly important, but in reality meaningless, statistic.

Hawks Coach Sat May 29, 2004 10:08am

It may be somewhat meaningless, but given that a lot of NBA games come down to the wire in the 4th quarter, I would always have a place on my team for a guy that can create, take, and make the clutch shot. Reggie clearly can. He isn't better than Jordan by any stretch (hence the stat being meaningless), but he's a great player.

And I too would like to know where this stat came from and how it is calculated (does time have to be expired when ball goes thru the net, is it the last shot made in a 1-2 point wing, etc.). And who calculated this anyway. I am more than a bit dubious of stats that are tossed out without reference or criteria.

TravelinMan Sat May 29, 2004 07:28pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gsf23
[B]
Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Jordan hit nine game winning shots in his career, Reggie has hit 22.

This does not surprise me. Miller si the VERY BEST off a pick in the NBA. He SPECILAIZES in it. Of course, that is all he is good at. Jordan was good at EVERYTHING.

Indy_Ref Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
That play was vintage Miller: get the defender in the air, jump into him, draw the whistle...
When an A1 gets B1 faked into the air...and that defender is NOT vertical (which, in this case, Hamilton was not as replays clearly show BOTH Hamilton's arms and body were out-stretched toward Miller and advancing toward Miller.)...then B1 is always at the mercy of the offensive player. As long as A1 doesn't lead with a malicious elbow, shoulder, or kick, he has every right to attempt a shot, draw contact, and get the call.

Quote:

... - it was a game-ender & Miller was LIVID. At the final buzzer he booted the ball into the crowd.
Being that Reggie has been in the league for about 18 years, and should have enough respect by now to warrant that call, I don't blame him.

Quote:

A great no-call, the only thing inconsistent about it is Miller has gotten way too many of these calls in the past. He didn't last night. In fact Miller was so shocked there was no whistle he forgot to fall on his @ss.
Dan, what an idiotic thing to say. Admittedly, Reggie has gotten away with WAY TOO MUCH crap in the past, but not on this play! He "forgot to fall on his a$$" because he wasn't knocked to the ground on this particular play. He simply drew some contact from an illegal defender by slightly changing his bodily trajectory on the shot attempt. I felt it was a pretty obvious call. Jordan got these calls every time...Shaq & Kobe get these calls every time...stars get these calls almost every time. And, Reggie is certainly a star even if he is in the twilight of his career. Once a player gains that certain level of "respect", it should not be lost...no matter what his past transgressions have been.

Dan_ref Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:11am

Quote:

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
Dan, what an idiotic thing to say.
Gee thanks, Indy. If I took the time to think about it I might actually feel slighted in some way. Mmmmmm...nah, maybe not.
Quote:



He "forgot to fall on his a$$" because he wasn't knocked to the ground on this particular play. He simply drew some contact from an illegal defender by slightly changing his bodily trajectory on the shot attempt.
I see...and how, exactly, is this different from the 1000's of times he's flopped with no contact on a 3 point attempt in the past? "No, not Reggie Miller...Reggie never flops!" you're saying to yourself right now.

Yes Indy, Reggie Miller flops.

I know, I know, it's tough seeing your team getting booted by the formerly lowly Pistons. You'll probably get over it, eventually. In the meantime enjoy your summer, there's always next year...

Maybe Bird will sign Rasheed? And once again there can be joy in Mudville...err...Indy.

Hawks Coach Wed Jun 02, 2004 01:01pm

Indy
Hamilton may not have been perfectly vertical, but I saw him as a lot closer than you did. Then again, I am not an Indy guy, so maybe my viewpoint is different :) Hamilton came out hard then jumped nearly perfectly straight up, and Reggie elected to jump straight into him after Hamilton left his feet. From where I sat, this was a no call in any NBA game unless they wanted to bail the star out.

Offensive players don't have the right to just jump into somebody because they aren't perfectly vertical. That is a terrible misinterpretation of the rules. If what you said was true, then an offensive player could also push off on a defender if they aren't vertical. Lack of verticality is not license to kill for the offensive player, it just means that if the offensive player is doing normal offensive movements, contact is likely to be the fault of the defender.

And Dan, no cone jokes please ;)

Oh, Travelin Man - if what Reggie does was so basic, everybody in the NBA would do it. Reggie works incredibly hard off the ball and comes off screens as well as anybody I have seen. His tremendous skills allow him to get off shots that others cannot, and have been a tremendous boost to Indiana's fortunes. Not MJ, but a damn fine player.

Camron Rust Wed Jun 02, 2004 05:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust

You don't need game winning shots when you're not trailing by 1 on the last shot. I'll take someone who puts the game out of reach for the other team over someone who has to save it at the buzzer.

Well put, Cameron. It's a classic example of a seemingly important, but in reality meaningless, statistic.

Unfortunately, most sportscasts are littered with them.

Some other meaningless stats
<LI>Team X wins 90% of the time when they're ahead by 10 or more at the half.
<LI>Team Y wins when 95% of the games where they shoot over 50%.
<LI>Team Z wins 80% of time when they out rebound the opponents.

All of these are probably true for any team. Teams that are playing better in the middle of the game or beating their opponents in real statistical categories tend to win.

The most accurate one (I made it up but I'm surprised I haven't heard it come out of the mouth of Billy Packer):

Team Q wins 100% of the games where they score more than their opponents. ;)

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 2nd, 2004 at 06:22 PM]

Hawks Coach Wed Jun 02, 2004 06:38pm

Nothing is absolute in my world, Camron
 
That last stat is true unless you use ineligible players :)


rainmaker Wed Jun 02, 2004 06:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust

The most accurate one (I made it up but I'm surprised I haven't heard it come out of the mouth of Billy Packer):

Team Q wins 100% of the games where they score more than their opponents. ;)

Actually, I think Bill Walton DID say it!

TravelinMan Wed Jun 02, 2004 07:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Oh, Travelin Man - if what Reggie does was so basic, everybody in the NBA would do it. Reggie works incredibly hard off the ball and comes off screens as well as anybody I have seen. His tremendous skills allow him to get off shots that others cannot, and have been a tremendous boost to Indiana's fortunes. Not MJ, but a damn fine player.

Hawks Coach, where did I say it was so basic?????? I SAID Miller was the VERY BEST in the NBA coming off a screen. I gave him the highest compliment. But, he is too one-dimensional to be compared to MJ. MJ excelled on both ends of the floor. Quite a number of fans don't realize what a GREAT defensive player Jordan was. He was on the all-defensive team too many times to remember.

__________________________________________________ _________
“The foolish and the dead alone never change their opinion."--James Russell Lowell

Hawks Coach Thu Jun 03, 2004 03:34pm

Sorry Travelin - when I read it, I thought you were slighting him not complimenting him. I think we would agree - not MJ, but an incredibly valuable player. Of course, compared to her peers, Cheryl was better :)

Mark Dexter Thu Jun 03, 2004 07:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Team Q wins 100% of the games where they score more than their opponents. ;)

A close second is surely a dissertation for an Ed.D. in physical education. They wrote an entire dissertation showing that the team that gets more rebounds is more likely to win a game of basketball.


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