I am doing a spring league for girls varsity and last Thursday a situation came up that got me to thinking.

We had a three man crew. I was the C and the ball was in the opposite corner. The L called a foul on B1 in the low post. About the same time A2 starts her shooting motion in the corner and swishes the shot. The L came out strong on the foul call and waved off the basket, but in reality, had no clue when the shot started (rule being if the shot motion has started, then the foul by B1 off the ball, the basket should count). Now, as the C, I had no clue as to the timing of events because I was opposite side, concentrating on action off the ball. However, the T should have had a good view.

My question is, when the L comes out and whistles the foul and waves off the basket, what are "best practices" in that situation? Do we remain quiet even if we are 100% sure the shot should be counted?

In my opinion, the lead should come out strong with the foul call, but wait on waving off the basket until a partner check can be done. So, I fault the L with bad mechanics here. But once the L does that, do we eat the call? How would you handle it?

This speaks to questions I've asked numerous times on this forum - getting the call right vs. correcting (potentially embarrassing) your partner when he comes out strong with the no basket signal.

Advice from a trusted official: Judgement is everything in this business.

This, like some many other things, is a judgement call but I'm interested in hearing what college officials have to say about this situation. As a young official, I'm still trying to find my style.

Do nothing--I misread the post.
 

All you can do is give information, at the end of the day, this is his call. The play is already dead when he blows the whistle and he would know really better than anyone when he determined there was a foul. You might go tell him, "the basket went in," but let him determine if it counts.

Or basically if he was so admimate about the basket not counting, I would do nothing. Then we would discuss it at halftime or at the end of the game.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on May 26th, 2004 at 09:06 AM]

Here is how I would have handled your situation. I would have immediately gone to the L before he got to the reporting area and had a quick discussion with him as to the timing of the foul. Tell him your concerns and if you really believe that A2 was in the act of shooting when B1 committed her foul, then you need to convince him that A2's field goal has to be counted.

I agree with JRut...the whistle, which is when the rest of us know it is dead, is not when the play was dead in reality. When the calling official saw the foul, it was dead then..I am of the opinion, if you think you must do something, then just let the calling official know that the basket went in...if they are having a brain lock and forget that if the shot was away it was good, then maybe this will shock them back to us here on earth...but I would not try to "convince" them of the call, by doing that it sure looks like you are fishing in someone elses pond...especially if it is close and not clear cut...

Mark T.,
Yes, have the discussion. This is particularly important if we, as the non-calling official, actually saw the foul also.

If we incorporate that understanding with Rut's suggestion, we have a good thing going, we're on the same page, and we're lookin' good. :)
mick

Mick, I like MTD's idea better and this is how I happen to handle it. Jeff's idea falls short IMO simply because to the non-calling official it should be *obvious* that the basket should count, in most cases the calling offical has no way of knowing where the ball was if he's making an off-ball call. This is something you must convince your partner of or as a crew you are sunk.

IMO.

It is fine that you disagree with my point of view on this, but you can give all the information in the world and still have the calling official not accept your information. I have had a partner turn down my information and I am not going to get into a debate on the floor about the situation. All you do is give the information, it is up to them to decide to take it into consideration. And I know when I blow my whistle, I consider the status of the ball and how that contact might have affected that play. I know what I am going to do in most cases without any other information. Maybe an official that makes this call already realizes what he wants to do.

Peace

Dan,
Ah, yes, ... in most cases.
In the given case, though, the official "waves off the basket". He not only had an idea, he also adjudged the timing. ;)

I think neither is better, but both is best.
mick
<HR>
When building a house, which is more important, the hammer or the nail?

Not sure I see why in this particular play the L could know the ball in the corner was shot prior to the foul he called at the low post. I suspect if he was working his primary he guessed on the foul or the shot.

I'm glad that I just learned from this thread that I should consult the non-calling partner if this happened to me. He/she should be the best to judge as he watched the shooter & heard my whistle

What Mick said is true. I wish I had thought to say it.
 

Maybe he had a wide angle? Maybe he was able to see both?

I think what Mick said rings so true. If the lead is waving off the play, he probably already realizes what is happening and made a decision. Not much you can tell him at that point. Of course this is a pregame issue, but I will assume if I was his partner that the play was dead before the shot was taken.

Peace

It's an imperfect wrodl, ain't it? :)
mick

Well...if you're working with the type of guy who flat refuses to accept your information then you're screwed.

If it was close then you let him live with it.

If it was OBVIOUS then you got to step up and make it right.

lol

Can't argue wiht that.

Re: What Mick said is true. I wish I had thought to say it.
 

I guess it's just the way we each visualize this play, but under mens 3 man if the ball is L side in the corner that is the T's responsibility. That goes double if the L is reffing a matchup in the post, which he did because he blew the whistle.

I understand the womens side has the L work much wider, but still I don't see how the L could have both the foul & the shot. I suppose it could happen, but it seems both the T & C would have a much better view.

In any even, as I said if it is OBVIOUS then someone has got to step up & fix it.

If it's close then let the L deal with it.

I disagree. He made a decision. I cannot question all his decision just because I might think I have a different opinion.

If it is close, of course I am going to let him live with it. I can, why do you have such a problem with that. ;)

Sometimes what is "obvious" is subjective. He made the call and determined that the basket should not count. Now I was not there. I did not see the play, so at best we are just speculating at this point. But at the very least, he made a call. It would be in my mind no different than disagreeing with my partner about a foul that was called. It might be a terrible call, but it is not my job to change terrible calls. It is my job to support my partner and if he messed up, he will have to answer to folks other than me. If I really disagree with the call, we will talk about it after the game.

Peace

The guy that's hammering the nails? ;)

To hammer in this nail let's consider the following case:

A1 shoots a 3 from the corner, as it is coming down L has a foul on B2 in the low post. He waves off the basket. Or maybe make it more fun: as the ball is coming down the T whistles a BI on B3, then the L whisltes the foul on B2 in the post. He waves off the basket.

Obvious? Or subjective? ;)

Re: Re: What Mick said is true. I wish I had thought to say it.
 

Well Tommy O'Neil (D1 Men's Official, works in the Big Ten and Big 12 and Mountain West) when I attended his camp last summer, told me that as the Lead, you still have to be aware of what goes on right outside of your area on the perimeter. When the ball is out there, he suggested that you still get an angle to see or be aware of what is going on with the ball in the corner.


Again, we are splitting hairs. Because what is obvious to one officical, might be not so obvious to another. We do not have both sides of the story, just one official telling us what he thinks he saw. It is still the calling official's decision to make, all the other officials can do is give information. He might decide to reject the "help" and do what he feel he called. But he also stated that the calling official immediately waved off the basket. I have to at least trust my partner that he knew what he was doing. Now if he does nothing, then maybe I have to have a talk. But not when he is that adamant about it.

Peace

No, what is obvious to one person, maybe not so clear to another.

If I am standing right there, I probably see all the movements, the reactions and the behaviors.

If I am standing 20 feet away, I see the end result. So depending on your angle, how much you see and what would be considered "obvious," can be very subjective.

The calling official knew in his mind when the play was dead. The whisle only tells everyone what he has. It does not tell the entire story.

Peace

This may show how ignorant I am of three person mechanics, but why wouldn't an off-ball foul simultaneously with a made shot automatically result in a conference before the basket is allowed or waved off? Does this take too much time or look too indecisive? I thought the whole point of three-man was to have six eyes on the play. Why not use all of them whenever you have more than one situation on a particular play?

[Edited by Jimgolf on May 26th, 2004 at 12:26 PM]

Re: Re: Re: What Mick said is true. I wish I had thought to say it.
 

Rut,
If I wave 'er off, but you think the shot was in motion, I want you to come down and give me that information.
That way I get to trust my partner, too. :)

We all know it is about communicating.
mick

C'mon Jeff, now you aint being serious.

In my plays it was OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE IN THE BUILDING EXCEPT THE L the shot was off before the whistle. He plain & simple got it wrong.

At this point let's just agree to disagree.

Re: Re: Re: Re: What Mick said is true. I wish I had thought to say it.
 

I do not disagree with that, but your "waving" tells me a lot about what you think you just called. If you did not feel so strong about it, then you would not have "waved" off the basket.

But there is the thang. We would have discussed that to some extent in the pregame or at halftime. If you want to come me to tell you something in those cases. But when the basket goes in and you do not say anything, all I am going to do in that situation is just tell you, "the ball went in." It is up to you to decide if it counts or not. ;)

Peace

If I'm calling an off-ball foul in the post, I often check the status of the ball before I whistle. It's part of the advantage/disadvantage. The location the ball sometimes affects the advantage. Plus, I'm not likely call a marginal defensive foul if the offense it getting the shot they want away from the foul. Of course, I'll certainly call it if it is more than marginal no matter the status of the ball.

I am very serious. They get paid the same as I do. They got the game the same way I recieved the game. It is not my job to make calls or decisions for my partners. If they have made a decision, they have to live with it. Because if I do exactly what you suggest, how many other calls is the coach going to start asking me about? I have no problem with how you choose to handle it. But if it is me, I am not saying anything.

Getting it right is not the most important "thang" when an official has made a complete judgment call. I am sorry, but we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. ;)

Peace

As T, I would run down and tell the L what I saw and then allow the L to count the bucket or remain with the original call. I would then support whatever the L calls at that point.

I just hope that if I am the lead that I do not wave off the shot as part of my mechanics in calling the initial foul and if I do, have the ability to make the correct call once I am in possession of all the information.

I say this because there could have been some lag time (hopefully not much) between the foul and my whistle, where the T is seeing the shot and hearing my whistle.

First, you should not have a conference unless all you are trying to figure out is how we are going to administer a Technical Foul or how to apply a very specific rule (substitutions, warnings).


The idea of 3 Person is to watch specific areas of the court. You should almost never have all officials looking at the same play. If you do, you are going to miss screens and off ball stuff or secondary defenders.

But the bottom line here, the official made a ruling. <b>It is not your job to question his/her rulings on judgment calls.</b> That does not matter if that is 2 Person or 3 Person.

Peace

Just what I do.
 

Camron,

This is exactly what I do. I do not blow the whisle without some idea what has happen with the ball (or at the very least I try not to). And if for some reason I am unclear as to what happen, I ask myself. But if I have waved off the basket, I have long made a decision as to what happen. Maybe my whistle was a little slow, but I sure decided for some reason I was not counting the basket.

Peace

Coupla things then I'll just shut up:

You mention the coach wanting you to change a call. I'm not sure where the coach comes into this discussion. He does not.

Maybe it's a regional thing, but where I am getting it right is the most important thing. Frankly, if we were working this game & you let me mess up this badly I would be pissed at you.

The T waving off the shot may or may not be a mistake. He might not have saw the shot and he might not have had any buisness looking at the shot anyway. I think what JRUT is trying to say is, if we are going to constantly question calls our partners make then it can take away from our trust, crew concept, flow and authority. If we are honest then we would realize that this happens all the time. If someone had a game where they didn't at least raise an eyebrow due to a call by one of their partners then that is good. Not impossible but good. So, do we question every call they make?

We might not have enough information from the original post to picture this play but there are many reasons why we should leave this alone. Like JRUT said, the other official is getting paid too. He/she must be responsible to some extent and live or die with their calls. It seems like the official was sure enough about the call to wave the basket off. There have been times when I have made a similar call and looked to my partners for help with the shot. There have also been times where a play occured and although my whistle was late/slow I was sure about the call I made and where the ball was at the time the foul/violation occured.

I have heard some of the same things as JRUT was told from other D1 officials. If multiple men/women doing major college basketball say the same thing I would start to listen.


IMO

He will if you come over and tell the calling official that he did not see what he actually called. How are you going to justify a comment to a coach when you say, "coach, he was in a good position to make a call," when you tell the calling official he did not see what he saw (in this specific situation)?

Well maybe you got the "getting it right" thang from me. Sorry if that confused the situation.

But if you were to come and tell me what I just called and what I just signaled as "not obvious" to you. I would be the one that would not only be pissed at you, I might do what I could to make sure we do not work together. So it cuts both ways. Because I am not waving off a basket, because I am unclear what just happen. But that is me. ;)

Peace

I had this exact thing happen to me at camp a couple summers ago. Dan was at this camp with me but was not the other official involved in the play.

I was Trail official. A1 shot the ball from about the FT line. Just as A1 releases the ball, Lead official whistles a foul underneath and comes out strongly waving off the basket. Ball goes in. I am 100% sure that the shot was released (forget about whatever crap you've heard about 110% sure).

He starts toward the "table" (cutting through the lane, but that's another issue :) ) but I intercept him after he takes about 3 steps.

I said, "Ask yourself if the ball was in the air before the foul". He immediately realized that it was and gave a "good hoop" signal.

Now, a couple things about the sitch: I should've selected my words better. I should've just told him that I was sure the ball was in the air. I was trying not to paint him into a corner, but instead it could've been interpreted as condescending, which was not what I intended.

Secondly: if he'd said to me, "It was definitely before the shot", I don't think I would have argued with him. Like Rut, I'm not going to get into a debate. I gave my info and he has to live and die with it. I might have asked our Center official if he had a good look, but I wouldn't have gone through a long discussion. Fortunately, he realized immediately that it should've been a good hoop.

I agree. I was wondering more if the ref should have waved off the shot if the shot was from outside his primary area of the court. This seemed to me to be similar to making a call in someone else's area. I was wondering if this is considered stepping on the other ref's toes or was considered standard operating procedure in 3 person.

There is not rule that says you cannot know what is happening with the ball outside of your area. Most of the time the ball is going to tell you what is going on, off ball. Yes, if a calling official knows the status of the ball, he or she should indicate it when they make a call. I know I do.

Peace