I'll be the one who starts this discussion, I figured someone would start it soon so I guess I'll take the healm.

Now IMO Madsen is the worst attempted intentitional fouler I have seen in some times. Now in this case I would have to say that none of the contact in question, by itself, warrants a call. Though we also don't want it to escalate, so my question for everyone is Why you think this was called, or why it shouldn't have been called? and what you do in situations like this (an intentitional foul is anticipated but illegal contact is hard to find)

The bigger question is when is the NBA going to put a real rule in place, that keeps a team from making the game a farce.

The NBA already changed rules once. Did the TWolves make the game a farce or did Shaq make the game a farce by not making free throws?

To answer the first question, I usually make the call but it looked like that was something discussed in the pregame or at halftime. IMO, it backfired on them. They were tring to keep the game watchable by not calling the foul. That wasn't the first or last time an NBA ref ignored the rule for entertainment sake.

I used to get in a huff about it, but not anymore.

The contact that Danny Crawford ignored was NOT a foul IMHO. It was far less contact that Madsen made on O'Neal during post play. Look at the play where Shaq was called for the offensive foul. Madsen had his arms extended and was pushing into Shaq's lower back and hips. Yet, a foul wasn't called. I agree with Shaq that Madsen should have been called for a foul long before O'Neal turned to the basket.

If Madsen wanted a foul called, he should have wrapped his arms around him and hugged him, as he had done on the previous two intentional fouls.

This is not about ANY player making or missing free throws, it is about intentional fouls. Why should the last two minutes be different? That is when a team that is behind WILL be fouling on purpose, so let's penalize them more at the time they NEED to foul. It is stupid. It also hurts the entertainment value of the game.

The real reason that they did not change the rule was because it is called "hack-a-Shaq" and Stern does not want to make it look like a pro-Laker conspiracy.

Madsen wouldn't have to guard Shaq like that if they would call the fouls when Shaq slams his big a$$ into guys knocking 'em back 5 feet. If you are gonna let him get away with that then you have to let the defense get away with leaning into him to keep their spot.

A real rule? You mean like traveling???

bingo. I totally agree right here. Madsen was all over Shaq.

BktBallRef - This is something I pulled out of the NBA rulebook - I din't see the play but based on your description of the play Madsen was engaged in; it was leagal if it was how you describe it.

Rule 12.B.1.b

b. Contact initiated by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball is not legal. This contact includes, but is not limited to, forearm, hands, or body check.
EXCEPTIONS:
(1) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball who has his back to the basket below the free throw line extend-ed outside the Lower Defensive Box.
(2) A defender may apply contact with a forearm and/or one hand with a bent elbow to an offensive player in a post-up position with the ball in the Lower Defensive Box.
(3) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time in the Lower Defensive Box. The forearm in the above exceptions is solely for the purpose of main-taining a defensive position.
(4) A defender may position his leg between the legs of an offensive player in a post-up position in the Lower Defensive Box for the purpose of main-taining defensive position. If his foot leaves the floor in an attempt to dis-lodge his opponent, it is a foul immediately.
(5) Incidental contact with the hand against an offensive player shall be ignored if it does not affect the player's speed, quickness, balance and/or rhythm.


Also the NBA has been quoted (cant find it right now but if i do i will post it) for saying they allow aggressive play but not rough play.

Sorry ace but I disagree. Like you said, you didn't see it. Each section of this rule reads, "a forearm" or "one hand." Such was not the case. Madsen had both forearms in O'Neal's back and was pushing. If Shaq had stepped forward, Madsen would have fell on his face.

[Edited by BktBallRef on May 26th, 2004 at 08:50 PM]

Madsen wwas definitely leaning on Shaq and I believe that Madsen might have had his palm(open hand) on Shaq too.

Officials have said before that Shaq is difficult to officiate because he is so much bigger and stronger than most post players. If they called him every time he displaced someome in the low post he would never make it out of the first quarter. The NBA knows this so they let him get away with a lot more in the post than most other post players.

In game one and game three, Shaq was just throwing guys around left and right in the post and not being called for anything. If the officials are going to let him do that, then they have to give the defense more lattitude when guarding him. I'm sorry but you can't let a guy get backed down continually in the post then you can't penalize him when he pushes back. Did Madsen push back too much, apparently not in Crawford's opinion which is the only one that matters.

And besides, everyone knows that the NBA wants the Lakers to win. :D

Well, if that's the case, I guess we should just delete this thread since we aren't allowed to discuss it. :rolleyes:

BTW, "throwing guys around" my a$$.

Wow are you saying that Shaq doesn't literally blast people out of possition like Paul Bunion pushing over trees??? Have you ever seen Shaq play? At least he doesn't pin them to the floor with his left hand everytime he slams it through anymore. Although he still hasn't learned to not swipe them out of the way.

I like the interview with him last week where he said "I never foul......hard anyway, It's just a matter of physics..."

What I see is a man that is so huge and so strong, that defenders are allowed to push, shove and attempt to muscle him, or he would dominate the game.

What I see is defenders who are allowed to violate his verticality to the point that they are knocked down when he turns.

What I see is defenders who are allowed to place both hands and arms on him and push, many times with the arms extended, not bent at the elbow.

What I see are defenders who don't have LGP in many of these situations where he is going to the basket.

And if you don't have position, you'd best get the **** out of his way.