Did anyone see the blind pick set by Srewell on Fischer on Sunday night? Fischer hit the ground immediately on contact, Spree was still, then left the area.

HS rules (10-6-3), lead me to believe no foul should have been called here, incidental contact, opponent stopped immediately and screener was not displaced. How would you call that in HS? Are NBA rules different on this? Commentators are incredulous that this could be a foul on Fischer.

First of all, I don't know if the NBA rules are different than NFHS rules on screening.

Second of all, commentators are often incredulous on <b> correct calls </b> because most commentators have never opened a rule book and have no training in officiating.

I have seen that play "no called" in the NBA before. However, it did not appear as if the defender made any attempt avoid contact (he can thank his teammates lack of communication for that) and that may have been the official's basis for calling that foul on the defense.

Z

Do you normally call a foul on the Defense when a "true" blind screen collision occurs? I love that type of play when executed properly by the offense but do not penalize the defender for being blind-sided.

I think we had a similar discussion during this year's or last year's NCAA tournament. Screener was completely stationary, gave plenty of time and distance. Screened player had no idea screener was there and a fairly violent collision resulted. Screened player went down in a heap, screener continued on his merry way. There was no whistle on the play.

My opinion on the NCAA play was that there was no foul on the play. I saw the Spreewell play only once and can't really remember it well enough to comment.

I'm sure JR can dredge up the link to that old thread. :)

Good question. Here in the state of Washington, the director of the WIAA has often been quoted as saying, "if there is a collision and a body hits the floor, there had <b> better </b> be a whistle." This has been repeated several times by clinicians at the WOA camps as well. If I'm at the state tournament and that happens, I guess I have no choice but to call a foul on the defense.

Z

Wow, to paint with such a broad brush your leadership seems to have put a damper on the whole concept of a good screen. Screening is an integral part of the game and if set properly I do not see why the whistle has to blow to stop the play regardless of a body hitting the floor. Afterall, basketball IS a contact sport - to some extent. Perhaps the mandate was designed given with protection of the defender in mind, but with a blind screen collision foul called on the defense it seems to penalize the player the mandate intended to protect...how ironic.

Actually, I think the mandate was given to help with rough play which was a POI for so many years. The college philosophy had drifted down to HS and way too many block/charge situations were being "no-called." At the high school game, I have no problem with that philosophy.

Z

Mr. Colbrese's statements were directly related to a semi-final game a few years ago in which a blind screen led to one of the "best" player's in the State getting knocked out (literally and knocked out of the semi and final with a concussion)...things got really ugly after that...the kid who got hurt was the screener, and no foul was called - hence the "mandate from on high"...and no, I was not working that game!! just spectating...

Mr. Colbrese's statements were directly related to a semi-final game a few years ago in which a blind screen led to one of the "best" player's in the State getting knocked out (literally and knocked out of the semi and final with a concussion)...things got really ugly after that...the kid who got hurt was the screener, and no foul was called - hence the "mandate from on high"...and no, I was not working that game!! just spectating...

[/B][/QUOTE]Yabut, WAS it a foul? Or just strong incidental contact on a legal screen?

Thanks for the info. I had heard it was a block/charge so good to hear the real scoop from someone who was there.

When I first heard the philosophy of "if there is contact that results in a body on the floor, there had better be a whistle," I wasn't sure I agreed... but I have become convinced that it is correct, for the high school game. Every once in a great while, it may cause a tough foul to be assessed against a player that might normally have got away with some hard (but formerly legal) contact. However, it leads to a less physical game which is exactly what you want at the HS level. The players adjust and the game becomes more finesse and clean. IMHO, that is why some "college officials" often don't have great success at the high school tournaments in Washington State. The observers want a tight game called and the college officials often don't adjust down to the high school level and they let it get too rough.

Z

Yabut, WAS it a foul? Or just strong incidental contact on a legal screen? [/QUOTE]

The point made by our director is that at the HS level, contact that causes bodies to hit the ground is not incidental.... and certainly not to the parents and A.D.'s.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on May 25th, 2004 at 02:48 PM]

I think there's a big difference between the screener getting knocked out (that obviously put the offense at a disadvantage -- should be a foul on the defense) and the defensive player getting knocked down from a legal screen(the defense is put at a disadvantage by a legal play -- should be a no-call)

You are entitled to your opinion. But at the HS level in the state of Washington, the WIAA director's opinion has more weight. :-)

Z

Any coach that has an IQ higher that a kumquat should then be telling their players to fall down as soon as they feel the contact when they set a screen. All you gotta do is set picks all over the floor on the other team's best player until you foul them out. And, of course you remind the officials everytime one of your players goes down that Mr. Colbrese said that you gotta call a foul on that play. Can't blame the coach, either, if they use that stategy. Helluva way to run a railroad though, Z. I say that even though I know that you gotta call it whether or not you like it, or agree with it, because of the politics involved.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 25th, 2004 at 03:33 PM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zebraman
[B]Then my reply to the director would be..."Yes, dear." Something I would just abide by for my best interest.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Any coach that has an IQ higher that a kumquat should then be telling their players to fall down as soon as they feel the contact when they set a screen. All you gotta do is set picks all over the floor on the other team's best player until you foul them out. And, of course you remind the officials everytime one of your players goes down that Mr. Colbrese said that you gotta call a foul on that play. Can't blame the coach, either, if they use that stategy. Helluva way to run a railroad though, Z. I say that even though I know that you gotta call it whether or not you like it, or agree with it, because of the politics involved.

In reality what happens is that the players adjust. The communication becomes real good, real quick ("pick on the right!") and they stop before contact. Similar to a good PC call at the beginning of a game... you don't see out-of-control drives after that.

Z

Yabut, WAS it a foul? Or just strong incidental contact on a legal screen? [/B][/QUOTE]

From where I was sitting - yep...defender blasted the screener practically out of his shoes...made no effort to stop/go around/lessen impact/etc...those need to be called - he flat-*** plowed the screener, and then (like I said) the game got real ugly...

From where I was sitting - yep...defender blasted the screener practically out of his shoes...made no effort to stop/go around/lessen impact/etc...those need to be called - he flat-*** plowed the screener, and then (like I said) the game got real ugly...
[/B][/QUOTE]That sounds like the official on the spot just plain and simply missed the call then. From your description, that one should be called a foul anywhere- and at any level too, imo. But issuing a mandate that a foul MUST be called just because the screener falls on contact is just wrong, imo also. It's overkill because one official(singular) happened to miss a call. What he's telling you to do is wrong by rule, and it's also contrary to the spirit and intent of that particular rule. Experienced officials know when they have to make that call for excessive contact, and they also know when they should let it go because the offense has already gained an advantage with the successful screen- and calling the foul WITHOUT the excessive contact would hand them a double advantage on the play. But, then again, if you are ordered to do it, then it becomes a case of "Yassuh, Boss", doesn't it?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 25th, 2004 at 06:39 PM]

Z and rockyroad...we will have to discuss this topic at our clinic next year. (East side of Washington State)
I guess I missed the boat on this one...I thought the "player on the ground" scenario was a block/charge situation or a defender "plowing" through a screen and displacing a screener.
I would have a hard time calling a foul on the defender if he hit a legal screener and then the defender fell on the ground. whew! :( (Maybe we could ask Cindy Adsit for some clarification)
Also, our clinician stated that if you are not sure what to call on a block/charge...then it is a charge.
Concerning the later, is that what you guys on the West side are being told?

You read it wrong, Dude-y. Rocky is talking about a defender plowing through a screen and knocking the screener down. They have been told that if the SCREENER goes down, a foul MUST automatically be called on the defender. At least, that's the way that I understand it from Rock's posts.

Yeah, we were told that "when in doubt, it's a charge."

Z

Sooooo, if a defender runs into the legal screener and the defender "hits the floor" do we use common sense (and the Rule Book) as our guide or do we go with the above directive?
Or...did I indeed take the above quote out of context and read it wrong as JR stated? (Which hopefully is the case)


[Edited by RookieDude on May 25th, 2004 at 08:55 PM]

Dude, they've been talking about the screener being knocked down. And "hopefully" doesn't help because the head guy is still wrong. He wants the foul to be automatically called on the defender if the screener gets knocked down. Unfortunately, the rule book does not support that stance. Rule 4-27-4--INCIDENTAL CONTACT- <i>"In cases of screens OUTSIDE the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertant contact with the screener, and such contact is to be ruled INCIDENTAL CONTACT, provided the screener is not displaced IF HE/SHE HAS THE BALL"</i>. Note that it doesn't mention displacing a player WITHOUT the ball as being an automatic foul. The call is supposed to be an official's judgement as to whether a foul is actually warranted.

Just to be clear, the head guy never said it had to be called on the defense. He wants a whistle on contact that causes a body to hit the floor. Use your referee judgement to decide if it's on the defense or the offense. The context that I heard it in was regarding a block/charge and I heard it consistenly at our state-run officials camp last summer. The screening stuff is new to me today....

And Jurassic, you're right in a perfect world. However, we live in an officiating world where rough play is a POI almost every year and our state is no exception. Our "head guy" saw that <b>way</b> too many high school officials were "no calling" a block/charge instead of making a tough decision and calling it a block or a charge. The result is that the games were getting too rough. For the high school game, I'm sure the director finds it much easier to live with a few wrong calls now and then rather than what he was seeing... which was the "let em' play" philosophy which is much too rough for high school games.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on May 25th, 2004 at 11:18 PM]

Z, I don't have a problem at all with someone wanting a call on the block/charge if someone hits the deck. As long as there's not a flop involved naturally. I can agree with your director wanting that. The same philosophy should NOT apply on screens though, imo. Apples and oranges. From Rocky's post, I got the impression that this all stemmed out of an incident where a player got hurt while setting a screen, and no foul was called. On those plays, it's not necessarily a foul on the defender. Could be on either opponent, or you could have a no-call- depending on the official's judgement.

JR...I have read that rule many times...I was simply taking the following quote one step further..."if there is a collision and a body hits the floor, there had better be a whistle"...I was being cute actually, in my scenario I was asking about the defender being called for the foul since he was the only one on the floor and he in fact caused the contact with the sationary screener.

I think zebraman is trying to show that our director wants a cleaner game...I don't think he wants "severe" contact...even though it is allowed by rule in certain cases. R4-27-2
Of course this does not apply to screening, but it does apply to incidental contact...I believe Director Mike Colbrese was trying to make a point. CLEAN IT UP!

I have only heard the philosophy that Colbrese is espousing from women's college officials and assignors. In my opinion and the that of the rules book, he is flat-out wrong.
For example, what if two players are running down the court side-by-side well away from the ball and the other eight players when their feet become tangled and both fall to the floor? Do you have a foul or perhaps a double foul?
I have even been told by a women's college official that if a dribbler steps on the foot of a stationary defender and falls to the floor his conference assignor wants a foul called on the defense.
I think that is garbage. This is basketball and it can at times be quite fierce and players will sometimes get hurt from legal contact. Calling the game in such a way that you turn it into something other than it is, is a farce.
No wonder all the Washington teams that come down here complain about how physical the game is.

Like I said, I only heard about it in reference to block/charge. I don't think it was meant for all scenarios, especially not the one you brought up.

As far as a physical game.... the NFHS thinks the high school game is too physical also. Once again, if officials were calling the game the way the NFHS intended it to be, physical play would not be a POI so often and state directors would not feel that they needed to make statements like that. This was a reaction to the way we (in general) officials are calling the game. Mr. Colabrese used to be a darn good official himself. He would not make statements like these unless he saw things being called incorrectly again and again.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on May 26th, 2004 at 11:35 AM]