![]() |
While watching a girls 14U tournament Saturday, and a 16U boys tournament Friday, I noticed that on fast breaks, certain defenders can whack the shooter with impunity, since the shooter shields them from the view of the lead official and the trail official is usually too far away to see anything or is concentrating on the trailers and not the players near the basket.
Is this a flaw in the way these particular officials are covering the court, or is this a known blind spot that cannot be avoided? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
__________________________________________________ ______ "Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first."--Mark Twain |
Quote:
Jim -- Of course the best way to cover the play is for the new lead to be out ahead of the players, and set up on the endline, facing back, before the shot goes up. Some of us don't always run fast enough to make that happen. The next best then, is to drop back enough that you can step in behind the pair and get a view in between them. The best is to see the shooter's arms and the ball. From there you can judge the amount of contact and the effect on the shot. What happens before the experience kicks in is that the ref is trying to get ahead of the play, but can't for whatever reason. Then he is straightlined and has no way to tell what actually happened. Incidentally, this is a problem whether the offense or defense are closer to the ref. The only solution is for the ref to either take some track coaching, or be humble enough to admit a weakness. |
That's the reason that with 2 officials you're always moving to get the best angle.
That's why 3-man officiating is so much easier, because someone always has the angle. Most of the time. |
Quote:
It comes down to working it from either behind, moving toward the center of the court, or working it wider to get a look like the center would have in 3 whistle. But like you said the worst thing you can do is try to outrun it if you can't get there easily. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Anyway, he stressed new lead getting to the endline before the ball crossed the division line. That is the NBA influence and you found so many officals CHEATING back on the shot, just so they would not get beat back, that the games suffered. I find in those rare ocassions where I'm beat, that working it wide gives me a better look, then moving toward the center of the court. I can see the whole play, adjust for the look through, and get to the endline easier from the sideline versus the closest lane line. |
With 2-man it sometimes impossible to get ahead of the fast-break. When getting beat on the fast-break with no chance of getting in front of the play, I usually button-hook around the play and see the gaps from behind the players driving to the basket then adjust if there is no contact. We also tend to get the trail to help as much as possible because he/she will see more of the action than the lead official.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
When I referee, it is almost always a one-man game at a rec league, so I'm not too aware of two-man mechanics, particularly at this level. I was watching the boys' games to show my youngest what the level of play was like at 16U, and the girls games because I had an errand to attend to in the facility, so I had no rooting interest and I guess I was objective as anyone can be. The non-calls involved both teams, but I really couldn't say what happended on the other end of the floor, since I couldn't see that far. The plays were not instances of two players beating the refs down the floor, but three-on-two breaks and four-on-two breaks after steals from pressing. The lead officials (all in pretty good shape) were invariably still behind the action when the shots were taken (New York City 16U AAU is about equal in speed to D1 NCAA, so this is not surprising), and when the lead official was coming up the left side, I couldn't see him, so I figured they couldn't see the action in front of me. In effect, both lead and trail are behind the action. I saw significant contact that I would have called a foul, but it also appeared to me that there was no way it could be seen by the lead official, and that the trail official was still back by the other foul line, primarily watching the trailing players. In the 14U girls games, this was not as frequent a problem, but was still noticeable on occasion, especially since I was more aware of the situation after Friday night's games. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Rainmaker(Juls)
I liked your first thread on this subject. I may be beaten on a fast break, but only once in a game (two man). Most often it is a set play and I'll be looking for it for the rest of the game. As far as getting beaten on a three man, shame on you if you have an O and D player farther back than you on trail ! |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Trail is on ball just below the 28' line, player attempts a skip pass that is tipped and stolen near the division line. Trail was positioned perfectly and now has players behind him/her going the other way. I've also been taught that you should always get an outside in look in 3-person, but there are times, like when you are rotating from C to T where you will be working inside out for a moment. |
Well, shame on the majority of NCAA and NBA officials then. When the ball goes the other way in a hurry on a steal,etc., it's not uncommon at all for an O & D player to get in front of a trail that has to stop and reverse directions in a hurry. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, shame on them! |
Lets stick to high school, sence thats what the majority of us here ref.
If a D can make it down court on a fast break to produce a foul, then I should be down court to see it happen, and if not sham on me ! |
Quote:
We are not talking about getting beat back during normal plays, we are talking about having transition starting BEHIND you, as trail. If you are doing your job right as trail, by working the backside and stepping down on the shot, you WILL get beat back, and it is unwise to try to outrun the play and get NO LOOK, as opposed to getting a good look by trailing the play. |
Quote:
|
True dat Mick.
BlindZ, Who said shot? I thought it was a STEAL we are talking about.(stay with us and fallow along) |
Quote:
|
Quote:
You can have a quick steal in transition and trails momentum is going forward, but the ball is already going the other way, and trail is BEHIND the play. You can have a shot with trail stepping down to FTL extended area, a long rebound a tap back and you have the ball going the other way, and trail is BEHIND the play. There will be times in every game where trail will get behind the play without it being trail's fault. The smart official recognizes that they are beat and positions themselves to get a good look at the play. That look does not happen by trying to outrun the players. |
Quote:
And I'll let you know about it the first dead ball... ;) |
[/B][/QUOTE]
In Arizona our former commissioner was so pro NBA, that it got crazy. We had they grey shirts, we were using non-fed mechanics, funny how we never got 3-person passed. Anyway, he stressed new lead getting to the endline before the ball crossed the division line. That is the NBA influence and you found so many officals CHEATING back on the shot, just so they would not get beat back, that the games suffered. I find in those rare ocassions where I'm beat, that working it wide gives me a better look, then moving toward the center of the court. I can see the whole play, adjust for the look through, and get to the endline easier from the sideline versus the closest lane line. [/B][/QUOTE] My two cents. I have worked the NBA system and NF. They are not mutally exclusive. My goal is always get the the baseline as a new lead before the ball gets to mid court. It requires some hustle but You need to be there. How can a person ref the lead when the ball is in front court and you are still moving to baseline. I have seen officials 4' off the baseline when ball is in mid court. I know that there are a lot of officials that espouse that a trail should always step down to FTL extended. I am one who believes this is not always the best policy. If the lead is working strong-side as shown/mentioned/illustrated by NF then Trail should not be so low, especially if lead comes over and both officails are on the same side of the floor. Trail has the perimeter and weakside rebounds which now are on the other side of the floor. The only way to see that is be higher. Trail should be between top of key and 28' mark. If the ball is out high, we should be working outside in. If there is a steal on the pass most of the time you should be atleast even with it. Take off with the play and get to the baseline. You may not get there but you'll be close. I personally dont like the button-hook, stay out near the FT Line stuff to look between. If your down there with them, you see the same thing the coaches see, you hear stuff, you can see ball go off legs etc... The farther behind the play you are the more likely you'll get yelled at. Id rather be one foot behind and miss 15 lay-up fouls, than I would to be in between them and behind by 10 or 15 and miss one. |
Quote:
I guarantee that if you watch for it tonight in the NBA game, you will see the trail caught under those exact circumstances. Happens at all levels. |
Quote:
Sure, getting downcourt first is great, but this more often than not means turning your back to the play & hauling @ss down court. Where I come from, if you turn your back to the play for more than a few steps, even on a tip/steal/fast break then you are gonna get yelled at big time. And I do not mean by some coach. Getting beat at the NF/NCAA level is fine in 2 man, even 3 man, as long as you are *referee-ing* from T - in fact it's even encouraged. If you're hanging back at mid court & still get beat...well then you might think about dropping down a level...but if you're working and get beat then it's good. |
Quote:
Anyway, he stressed new lead getting to the endline before the ball crossed the division line. That is the NBA influence and you found so many officals CHEATING back on the shot, just so they would not get beat back, that the games suffered. I find in those rare ocassions where I'm beat, that working it wide gives me a better look, then moving toward the center of the court. I can see the whole play, adjust for the look through, and get to the endline easier from the sideline versus the closest lane line. [/B][/QUOTE] My two cents. I have worked the NBA system and NF. They are not mutally exclusive. My goal is always get the the baseline as a new lead before the ball gets to mid court. It requires some hustle but You need to be there. How can a person ref the lead when the ball is in front court and you are still moving to baseline. I have seen officials 4' off the baseline when ball is in mid court. I know that there are a lot of officials that espouse that a trail should always step down to FTL extended. I am one who believes this is not always the best policy. If the lead is working strong-side as shown/mentioned/illustrated by NF then Trail should not be so low, especially if lead comes over and both officails are on the same side of the floor. Trail has the perimeter and weakside rebounds which now are on the other side of the floor. The only way to see that is be higher. Trail should be between top of key and 28' mark. If the ball is out high, we should be working outside in. If there is a steal on the pass most of the time you should be atleast even with it. Take off with the play and get to the baseline. You may not get there but you'll be close. I personally dont like the button-hook, stay out near the FT Line stuff to look between. If your down there with them, you see the same thing the coaches see, you hear stuff, you can see ball go off legs etc... The farther behind the play you are the more likely you'll get yelled at. Id rather be one foot behind and miss 15 lay-up fouls, than I would to be in between them and behind by 10 or 15 and miss one. [/B][/QUOTE] I agree that there are times that trail should not step down, that was not the point. The point is we should not be so concerned about getting beat on a play that has not happened yet, that we don't referee the play that IS happening. I don't think anyone is saying that the best look is not on the endline with the play coming to you, but that trying to get to that look when you can't get there first is the worst look you can get. If you stay wide get the center's look and close on a call, you are in the same spot as you'd be if you were on the endline, made a call and stepped on the court. The appearence is the same AFTER the call. I rather get a good look, see the play, get the call right and sell it, then beat them there but miss the call in the effort. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
As I said earlier the former commissioner in Arizona embraced this philosophy and evaluated officials based on it. It really hurt the game and lead to bad habits. |
I started out in Phoenix and they wanted that before the former commish unless the former commish isn't the one that got "dismissed" then it would be the one before that. Depending on the situation, it really helps to receive the play. It just can't be stressed to the point where you are running away from plays that you should be officiating.
I will also say that Arizona has some of best mechanics (or used to have) for someone just starting. I've heard some people say that mechanics don't matter. They sure don't hurt anything. |
straight-lined
Quote:
So even with only one player and an NBA referee, it happens. |
Quote:
The NBA philosophy is that you need to be where you need to be and in right position to officiate. The right position ot officiate when the ball is in front court is on the baseline. ((I dont think NF would disagree too much on this) I would have a hard time understanding how you would be too far ahead of the play if you are on the endline when the ball has crossed the mid court line. If the ball is there there is less than 45' between the ball and the basket. Most players are between the basket and the ball... If you are standing on the baseline waiting for a play it always looks better than moving with a play or trailing it... I have seen that happen even in non-transition because an official was too slow, too lazy, etc. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
The NBA philosophy is based on new lead having very little responsibility for the press, in fact all 3-person systems the center has arch to arch in transition. |
Juulie you are absoultely right on a fast break I would never expect a new lead to be 45' in front of the play.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:03am. |