What would you do?

[Ref in PA]

I am doing a spring league for girls varsity and last Thursday a situation came up that got me to thinking.

We had a three man crew. I was the C and the ball was in the opposite corner. The L called a foul on B1 in the low post. About the same time A2 starts her shooting motion in the corner and swishes the shot. The L came out strong on the foul call and waved off the basket, but in reality, had no clue when the shot started (rule being if the shot motion has started, then the foul by B1 off the ball, the basket should count). Now, as the C, I had no clue as to the timing of events because I was opposite side, concentrating on action off the ball. However, the T should have had a good view.

My question is, when the L comes out and whistles the foul and waves off the basket, what are "best practices" in that situation? Do we remain quiet even if we are 100% sure the shot should be counted?

In my opinion, the lead should come out strong with the foul call, but wait on waving off the basket until a partner check can be done. So, I fault the L with bad mechanics here. But once the L does that, do we eat the call? How would you handle it?

[lrpalmer3]

This speaks to questions I've asked numerous times on this forum - getting the call right vs. correcting (potentially embarrassing) your partner when he comes out strong with the no basket signal.

Advice from a trusted official: Judgement is everything in this business.

This, like some many other things, is a judgement call but I'm interested in hearing what college officials have to say about this situation. As a young official, I'm still trying to find my style.

[JRutledge]

All you can do is give information, at the end of the day, this is his call. The play is already dead when he blows the whistle and he would know really better than anyone when he determined there was a foul. You might go tell him, "the basket went in," but let him determine if it counts.

Or basically if he was so admimate about the basket not counting, I would do nothing. Then we would discuss it at halftime or at the end of the game.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on May 26th, 2004 at 09:06 AM]

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Ref in PA
I am doing a spring league for girls varsity and last Thursday a situation came up that got me to thinking.

We had a three man crew. I was the C and the ball was in the opposite corner. The L called a foul on B1 in the low post. About the same time A2 starts her shooting motion in the corner and swishes the shot. The L came out strong on the foul call and waved off the basket, but in reality, had no clue when the shot started (rule being if the shot motion has started, then the foul by B1 off the ball, the basket should count). Now, as the C, I had no clue as to the timing of events because I was opposite side, concentrating on action off the ball. However, the T should have had a good view.

My question is, when the L comes out and whistles the foul and waves off the basket, what are "best practices" in that situation? Do we remain quiet even if we are 100% sure the shot should be counted?

In my opinion, the lead should come out strong with the foul call, but wait on waving off the basket until a partner check can be done. So, I fault the L with bad mechanics here. But once the L does that, do we eat the call? How would you handle it?

Here is how I would have handled your situation. I would have immediately gone to the L before he got to the reporting area and had a quick discussion with him as to the timing of the foul. Tell him your concerns and if you really believe that A2 was in the act of shooting when B1 committed her foul, then you need to convince him that A2's field goal has to be counted.

[cmathews]

I agree with JRut...the whistle, which is when the rest of us know it is dead, is not when the play was dead in reality. When the calling official saw the foul, it was dead then..I am of the opinion, if you think you must do something, then just let the calling official know that the basket went in...if they are having a brain lock and forget that if the shot was away it was good, then maybe this will shock them back to us here on earth...but I would not try to "convince" them of the call, by doing that it sure looks like you are fishing in someone elses pond...especially if it is close and not clear cut...

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I would have immediately gone to the L before he got to the reporting area and had a quick discussion with him as to the timing of the foul. Tell him your concerns and if you really believe that A2 was in the act of shooting when B1 committed her foul, then you need to convince him that A2's field goal has to be counted.

Mark T.,
Yes, have the discussion. This is particularly important if we, as the non-calling official, actually saw the foul also.

If we incorporate that understanding with Rut's suggestion, we have a good thing going, we're on the same page, and we're lookin' good.
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick

Mark T.,
Yes, have the discussion. This is particularly important if we, as the non-calling official, actually saw the foul also.

If we incorporate that understanding with Rut's suggestion, we have a good thing going, we're on the same page, and we're lookin' good.
mick

Mick, I like MTD's idea better and this is how I happen to handle it. Jeff's idea falls short IMO simply because to the non-calling official it should be *obvious* that the basket should count, in most cases the calling offical has no way of knowing where the ball was if he's making an off-ball call. This is something you must convince your partner of or as a crew you are sunk.

IMO.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Mick, I like MTD's idea better and this is how I happen to handle it. Jeff's idea falls short IMO simply because to the non-calling official it should be *obvious* that the basket should count, in most cases the calling offical has no way of knowing where the ball was if he's making an off-ball call. This is something you must convince your partner of or as a crew you are sunk.

IMO.

It is fine that you disagree with my point of view on this, but you can give all the information in the world and still have the calling official not accept your information. I have had a partner turn down my information and I am not going to get into a debate on the floor about the situation. All you do is give the information, it is up to them to decide to take it into consideration. And I know when I blow my whistle, I consider the status of the ball and how that contact might have affected that play. I know what I am going to do in most cases without any other information. Maybe an official that makes this call already realizes what he wants to do.

Peace

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
....in most cases the calling offical has no way of knowing where the ball was if he's making an off-ball call.

Dan,
Ah, yes, ... in most cases.
In the given case, though, the official "waves off the basket". He not only had an idea, he also adjudged the timing.

I think neither is better, but both is best.
mick

---

When building a house, which is more important, the hammer or the nail?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick

Dan,
Ah, yes, ... in most cases.
In the given case, though, the official "waves off the basket". He not only had an idea, he also adjudged the timing.

I think neither is better, but both is best.
mick

---

When building a house, which is more important, the hammer or the nail?

Not sure I see why in this particular play the L could know the ball in the corner was shot prior to the foul he called at the low post. I suspect if he was working his primary he guessed on the foul or the shot.

[Chin Ref]

I'm glad that I just learned from this thread that I should consult the non-calling partner if this happened to me. He/she should be the best to judge as he watched the shooter & heard my whistle

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Not sure I see why in this particular play the L could know the ball in the corner was shot prior to the foul he called at the low post. I suspect if he was working his primary he guessed on the foul or the shot.

Maybe he had a wide angle? Maybe he was able to see both?

I think what Mick said rings so true. If the lead is waving off the play, he probably already realizes what is happening and made a decision. Not much you can tell him at that point. Of course this is a pregame issue, but I will assume if I was his partner that the play was dead before the shot was taken.

Peace

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Not sure I see why in this particular play the L could know the ball in the corner was shot prior to the foul he called at the low post. I suspect if he was working his primary he guessed on the foul or the shot.

It's an imperfect wrodl, ain't it?
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

It is fine that you disagree with my point of view on this, but you can give all the information in the world and still have the calling official not accept your information. I have had a partner turn down my information and I am not going to get into a debate on the floor about the situation. All you do is give the information, it is up to them to decide to take it into consideration. And I know when I blow my whistle, I consider the status of the ball and how that contact might have affected that play. I know what I am going to do in most cases without any other information. Maybe an official that makes this call already realizes what he wants to do.

Peace

Well...if you're working with the type of guy who flat refuses to accept your information then you're screwed.

If it was close then you let him live with it.

If it was OBVIOUS then you got to step up and make it right.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick

It's an imperfect wrodl, ain't it?
mick

lol

Can't argue wiht that.