Today I had a rather interesting experience watching a 7th grade girls playoff game. Last night my partner and I (both of us with varsity experience) did a game in which coach A, who is ordinarily an extremely nice guy off the court was sort of a howler, wanting calls, especially non-existant travels and the like. My partner and I both thought the comments were mildly annoying, but nothing to really even warrant a T or a warning. Today after working my two games, that same team played its next playoff game, and I stuck around to help with the book. The two officials both had HS experience, one with a good deal of varsity experience. During the game the same coach was much more of a howler almost openly complaining about cheating by the officials and even cross talking to the other coach, accusing him of being dirty. He was not T'ed nor warned by the officials. Had it been my game, he probably would have earned at least one T.

The reason for this post is that it made me think about my game the night before. Maybe if I stuck the guy with a T when he started to mouth off he would have gotten the message and backed off today. Also, I thought about the officials in a 7th grade game who he might see in the future, typically younger, inexperienced guys who aren't used to handling coaches tantrums. The game was called well, except for the management of the rogue coach, in my opinion, but seeing this game made me re-evaluate how I handled the coach last night and gave me new perspective on the importance of enforcing bench decorum. Not enforcing it strictly is giving the next game's officials a raw deal.

At a camp one of my evaluators told me this, "If you regret not giving a technical, you should've T'd him up" I think that this is an excellent situation that falls right into this quote.

I tend to officiate more on the side of caution, if i think there is a remote possibility i will regret not T'ing up a coach, he's gonna get whacked ;) j/k

Although i have been one to T up quite a few coaches, i'm sure they've all deserved it, and after seeing them in other games, their behaviour has benifitted from it.

Giving Ts do not solve all problems. Just because you did not give a T, does not mean the coach is going to feel his actions were wrong. That really has little to do with it in my opinion. Every game is different and every situation is different. Maybe he was on them more because he did not think they were as good? Maybe he was on them because there was more pressure? I obviously do not know the answer to this, but just because the guy before gave a T, it is not going to automatically change the attitude for the next time. It might when that coach runs into you, but not some other guy. Good coaches at least know who they can get away with things and who they cannot.

Peace

I disagree....an NCAA evaluator spoke at a camp I went to a couple years ago. One of the things I remember most from his speech was "try to have your errors be errors of omission". I think that applies well to T'ing coaches.

Although T's are supposed to be "just like any other foul", we all know that in reality, they are not. If I am in doubt about a T, I'm thinking it's better to pass on it. Then again, I have a very well-developed sense of what I will and will not allow, so I haven't had a whole lot of instances where I looked back and wondered about it.

Bottom line is that a T is supposed to make the game better in some way. If I'm not sure about it, I think the probability of it making the game better goes down.

Just my $0.02 (or $0.00002 U.S.)

You can't change the way you ref because some other officials had some troubles. You didn't consider regretting your no-T until the next game was trouble.

Your game - your T. Next game is someone elses problem. Jrut makes some good points too.

The technical foul is just another call in the rulebook and nothing to get emotional about.

This sounds good but really not true IMO. If it was just another call, the formula for calling it would remain the same no matter what. Depending on the climate of the game, what is a T today is not a T tomorrow. This applies to fouls and some violations also.

Yesterday I T'd a coach about four minutes into the game. He was continually complaining about calling it both ways. My partner called a foul in favor of his team and he was still complaining. The board was not showing the fouls but they were like 4-1 in his favor. I told him that was enough and gave him the symbolic stop sign. This is something I rarely do because I rarely T coaches. Anyway, he kept on and I T'd him up. He was OK until the end of the game when he started again about a no call from my partner. The coach then continued to talk about us to his players. He was staying because at this point his team was losing by about 36. So the coach and his assistant start to give me the "don't take this away from the kids ref." Huh? You are losing by 36 and now looking for someone to blame. You are losing by 36 and we are taking it away from the kids?

Friday night, tied game with under a minute to play. One team had come back from about 18 points. This team had a coach that wasn't a coach, an assistant that wasn't a coach and some fans that didn't know what they were complaining about. I think we've all seen this before. So on two consecutive trips to the line I tell the players on both sides "do not let what the coaches and fans dictate what you do and how you react to calls at this point in the game." So the next trip down the court my partner calls a travel under the basket. The kid that he calls it on comes all the way out to the three point line and throws a tantrum. I mean he falls on the floor kicking and screaming. Maybe at home, maybe at school but not on the court with me. Technical foul. This team has one player who has his head and tells the coach what I had told them. After the game the coach begins to complain and say things to us until I repeat exactly what I had told the players and mention the fact that he didn't say anything to the player. He agreed and told us that one of his players had told him this. He shook our hands and that was that.

Coaches and players will do whatever we let them do for the most part. If they are consistently dealt with the smart players and coaches will change their behavior.

He was OK until the end of the game when he started again about a no call from my partner. The coach then continued to talk about us to his players. He was staying because at this point his team was losing by about 36. So the coach and his assistant start to give me the "don't take this away from the kids ref."

Coaches and players will do whatever we let them do for the most part. If they are consistently dealt with the smart players and coaches will change their behavior.

[/B][/QUOTE]And if they aren't consistently dealt with, coaches won't change their behavior and then they'll be openly talking about the officials to their players.

Totally agree - in the context of how we approach it, but to everyone else, it definitely is not. After all, coaches and players do not get five T's before they are tossed out (thank goodness).

And if they aren't consistently dealt with, coaches won't change their behavior and then they'll be openly talking about the officials to their players. [/B][/QUOTE]

Exactly, which is why I talked to him so his players could hear me on purpose. At that point in the game, ejecting him would have been useless. Talking to him and sending the message that what he was saying wasn't alright was the best thing to do to get the game over with.

A "T" may be "just another call," but it isn't the only way to prevent bad behavior. When I first started officiating, I ignored coach behavior until he/she "crossed my line" and then I gave a T.

My approach now is way different. As soon as I see that a coach is starting to complain too much, I get over there as soon as possible and have a quick respectful conversation with him. Usually, that's all it takes and he/she realizes that I'm human and that I'm not going to let him/her behave that way all night.

Now if a couple of "respectful interventions" don't work, then we might be heading towards a T but I have found that there are much more effective and quicker ways to curb coach behavior.

Z

Exactly, which is why I talked to him so his players could hear me on purpose. At that point in the game, ejecting him would have been useless. Talking to him and sending the message that what he was saying wasn't alright was the best thing to do to get the game over with. [/B][/QUOTE]

Not that I'd do it in all situations, but I was doing a youth league game and we had a blowout. The losing team was completely overmatched, and their coach kept chipping about calls, I had finally heard enough and while putting the ball in play near their bench I said, while pointing to the scoreboard, "Coach we have NOTHING to do with that score, so stop looking for excuses."

He stopped talking about calls after that and I did not have to T him.

Not that I'd do it in all situations, but I was doing a youth league game and we had a blowout. The losing team was completely overmatched, and their coach kept chipping about calls, I had finally heard enough and while putting the ball in play near their bench I said, while pointing to the scoreboard, "Coach we have NOTHING to do with that score, so stop looking for excuses."

He stopped talking about calls after that and I did not have to T him.

[/B][/QUOTE]A simple "STFU" has been known to work also.

Have to agree fully with this one - call (or don't call) a technical based on the game situation you are in - not based on the possibility of a future game situation. It's up to the coach/player whether or not (and what) they learn from the situation.

Wow.

I think this is the point at which I say - "you're gone."

There's no place for that in a game of basketball.

As a follow to my original post, I spoke to my partner from Friday about how we handled that game in light of how the game went yesterday and determined that there was nothing really in our game that we could have done differently from a game management point of view. We controlled the coach by communicating with him ("I'll give it a look coach," "I hear you coach," etc)and basically letting him know where the line was. The officials in the other game ignored the behavior of the coach and it got worse. In my opinion, coaches have to be addressed in some form, or their behavior will simply get progressively worse.

Zebraman, from my perspective on the sideline, your approach works wonders. While I've never been T'd in 12 years (more or less) of coaching, I've certainly found that an official who will talk to me respectfully when my frustration level is running high, will help me settle down. It also improves my ability to help my kids by getting my head back in the game and off of individual events within the game.
I think many time coaches can't let go of something (like a call they didn't like), then subsequent events just add to it. I bet that your kind of intervention can be pretty effective at helping them to let go and get back to their jobs.

You always have the best signature lines!

Butch,
It really is amazing how well this works. At my last state tourney, there was this one coach who was just being a crazy man in his first two games. None of the refs dealt with his ranting and yelling which I think really hurt them in their evaluations (they all got sent home quickly). I had him in my third game and the first time he started wandering and yelling I just walked over to him and said, "hey coach, what did you see that I didn't see?" He said something about his player getting pushed and all I said was, <i>"I didn't see it that way coach, but I'll keep an eye on that. But coach, I really need you to ask in a respectful way rather than running out of your box and yelling OK?"</i> He just smiled sheepishly and said, "OK, sorry." He was a complete gentleman the rest of the game and just asked legit questions and stayed in his box.

Now it doesn't work that well everytime, but I guarantee you that the game would have been a nightmare (or a quick T) had I not gone over and addressed him respectfully right away.

Z

When do you all have all this time to talk to coaches? During time-outs? I often want to diffuse a coach who disagrees with a call, but am torn between taking care of the coach or getting in position for the inbounds.

I often play politician in the first half. In the second half (if he proves to be an idiot), he gets concise answers and a strong warning. After that, T city.

Luther

Luther,

You can talk to a coach anytime you find yourself standing next to him.

If you are doing a lot of 3 Person, it is really easy. Usually at least one official is standing next to the benches.

Peace

Hey Z, which tournament was this at? Just wondering if I have come across this coach before...tell me the level and gender and let me try to guess which school, ok??

It doesn't have to be even anything close to a full conversation, and it doesn't have to be on every call the guy dissgrees with. But, every so often, when you're running by, if the coach is beginning to rant about a "travel" you didn't call because of an interrupted dribble, all you've got to do is say "Interrupted dribble, coach", and he's very likely to let it go. In fact, you may have blown the call, but it won't matter to him anymore. He has let it go, and you've run past so he can't argue with you. His attention is now back on the game, not on being upset with you or the call. If you don't do that, he may ultimately reach the point that no amount of talk will calm him. I personally have no use for coaches who want to argue, and if, as you say, he proves to be an idiot, I'd be the first to applaud you sending him to "T city" - particularly if he was my opponent :D.

...call a travel on him :D (j/k)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rockyroad

Quote:

Hey Z, which tournament was this at? Just wondering if I have come across this coach before...tell me the level and gender and let me try to guess which school, ok??

Washington State Girls 1A. Now guess.

Z

Speaking of ts coming in situations here's a story from the kingwood classic:

Coach down by 24 points.. Complaining. I give him a soft two-hand stop sign (my back is to the scoreboard)go down the floor come back he's still going - give him a hard 2 handed stop sign. Go down the floor come back - player goes up for the shot and he stands up and in a raised voice says to the back of my head, I want an AND 1 ON THAT!" So I t'd him. Now - Had I realized he was down by 40 points with only 2 mintues left in the game I probably would have given him one more stern hard warning and been done with it.

Georgia Techs coach got my attention as I was walking off the floor and said, "You look like a smart guy and a damn good referee, I was shocked to see you drop that technical on that coach." I told him "thats what happens when u cant see what the situation is and you have to take care of business some how."

So, I count four stop signs (why did you use two hands?)and a T at the end of the game. A team is down by 40 points with two minutes to go and you say you can't see what the situation is? With the information you have given I find it hard to see giving this coach a T. How does the saying go "there was nothing left but the crying" or something like that. I would have been trying to keep the clock running.
I will end with this. IMHO, it is difficult to say for sure whether you had no choice. I can't see it but I wasn't there and I didn't go through this the entire game. If the coach behaved badly the entire game you should have got him early. From reading your post, what he said is becoming more common and to read it doesn't trigger anything worthy of a T.

I think that was the point of the last paragraph, Tom...

Rainmaker, are you saying that he was telling coach Hewitt that the coach didn't see the situation?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zebraman

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad Quote: Hey Z, which tournament was this at? Just wondering if I have come across this coach before...tell me the level and gender and let me try to guess which school, ok?? Washington State Girls 1A. Now guess. Z

Shoot...haven't been to 1A before...was thinking of the guy from East Valley of Yakima when I first read your post...hmmmm...I know the 1A coaches around here are all nutso, so maybe it was Onalaska or Toutle??? Or am I on the wrong side of the mountains?

What's the difference between a soft and hard stop sign?

I have two very different thoughts on this situation. Just because you are getting beat doesn't give you the right to act like a fool on the sideline. I think that a T that doesn't affect the game (20 point difference) at the end of the game shows that kind of behaviour won't be tolerated and sets the tone for the next time s/he sees you. However, if s/he is doing something that they have been doing all game, you should have gotten them earlier.

The second thought is, there is 2 mins left and we just want to get out of here without incident. What will a T accomplish is this senario? Is it just pouring salt in an open wound? But if I am leaning towards my second type of phylosophy, I can't be giving out stop signs or saying, "that's enough" because now i have to do something if he continues.

Just a thought...

Zillah.

Z

OK, I'm a little lost here. Coach was down by 24 and then two trips later he's down by 40. ???

Also, how could you not know time and score? You may not have know it was exactly 40 points with 2 minutes left, but you had to know that they were <b> WAY </B> behind with very little time remaining.

If the coach was complaining all game, you should have taken care of it earlier. If he just started his whining with two minutes left, either ignore it and get done or stop play and go talk to him (I have no problem with stopping play in a blow-out game to go have a quick chat with a whiny coach - it would be worth a try before giving the late T).

Z

I gotta say that the 16 point bucket threw me off too. I'm thinking get out of here. A T is just going to make a tough situation harder for everyone.

16 Point Bucket!!
 

That's why the coach was mad - he would really be mad if they were scored that way all game!

You guys are thinking the same way I was thinking. I don't know what he could possibly do to warrant a T in 120 seconds. If anything he would do something bad enough to warrant me tossing him but I wouldn't do that either. I want him to watch the rest of the game with me. :D

No, I'm saying that ace was telling the Georgia Tech coach that ace hadn't kept track of the score and time, and gave the T without realizing the whole situation. I think ace was saying he probably shouldn't have given the T. Which is what I think you were saying, as well.

Rainmaker, I still don't understand why you made that post. I thought the point of his (ace) last paragraph was to tell his story. He didn't say that he should have known the climate of the game. He just mentioned what he said to the coach. Is it just your opinion that I didn't need to tell him that he could have passed on the T with 2 minutes left?

Never had the pleasure...darn.

I don't care how much time is left. If the coach deserves it, he get it. No one gets a free shot at the refs just because they're down big. Ejections hurt them in the next game too.

Earlier, someone told a story about a coach trying to get a T and the refs even told the guy that they weren't going to give it to him. I LOVE THAT IDEA. If the coach is down 40, he's trying to detract attention away from the scoreboard and find a way to blame the officials. Don't bail him out with the T.

In the last month of summer/rec ball, I have given out more than my share of T's to the losing team in the last 2 minutes of the ball game. And guess what, it's like salt to the wound. Never made things better, and it's frustrating.

Am I doing other refs a disservice by not T'ing up an irrate or cursing player/coach?

Luther

Yes.

The score board was to my back... meaning it was on a side-wall and I could not see it. It seemed during this whole "situation" that I was table side (which is where the clock was) and didnt have a chance to see what the time was. I would normally NEVER bail a coach out with a T because his team is down by 20+ points with 2 minutes left to go in the game. Which is why I told Hewitt that I wouldnt have t'd him had I know what the score was. This game was a fast moving games and both teams were playing really well it just so happend one team was down by 24 (when i dropped the T- ended up down by 40 point difference). Soft stop sign ... Usually two hands (something a DI NCAA official taught me (Tim Marion) and isnt force ful just a light raising of the hands.
A hard stop sign usualy one handed is the typical STOP! sign. I knew the coach was loosing and I figured thats why he was on my case I just didnt know how bad.

Does that help you folks out? Just ask Brad, no one can understand me in person let alone online :-D

1) How exactly could you "bail" the coach out in situations like this? He ignored not one, but two stop signs from you. I'm with Camron on this one. Score and time remaining have got nothing to do with whether the coach deserves a T or not. The coach's actions are what determines whether he should be nailed or not, and nothing else. If you're gonna let the coach get away with his crap, then why bother to warn him at all? Btw, what would you expect a coach in the stands to say? My fellow coach really deserved that T? I'd take anything that any coach tells you with a BIG grain of salt.

2) Ace, what is the advantage of giving TWO stops signs, no matter what you might call them? You might as well forget about the first one, because it was NOT a stop sign. It wasn't even a warning because you didn't mean it. Do whatever works for you, but I've always found that if a coach knows that a warning really IS a warning, then they'll also know that they've only got themselves to blame if they choose to disregard that warning and subsequently get T'd up. Jmo, but I think that you're better off to be consistent with the players and coaches. Letting a coach get away with unsporting conduct because there is only a coupla of minutes left in the game is like drawing a line in the sand- and then erasing it and drawing a new line later on. How can the coach really know which of the lines that he crosses is gonna actually be the one that he's gonna get nailed on, if you keep moving the line on him?

Let's see the scoreboard was behind you and stayed there, so you never had a foul switch? There was never a dead ball? There was never the slightest lull in the action to look at the clock?

You had no feel for the time or the score and you gave a non-warning. Those are MUCH bigger issues than whacking a coach late in a blowout.

The game was moving fast... I had a general sense of the time. We'd run down the court one team would shoot or miss and we'd turn and run back down the other side. For me to look at the clock I would phyically have to turn ALL the way around and then look up and porbably step back because it was an LED clock 5 feet above my head on a wall probably 4 feet behind me. Two aggressive and quick teams.. .yeah I'm gunna do what everyone tells you not to do- TAKE MY EYES OFF THE PLAYERS!!!! i dont think so. I did what I did... I could handled it differently. Nuff said.

So you are saying that in 6 minutes, or 14 minutes, or in 18 minutes that got you to under 2 minutes you never had a chance to see the clock? Okay. How do you see the clock when you have two clocks on either end, then? Yeah this clock was so poorly placed that it was completely impossible to see from any spot on the floor, without turning around completely. Right.

A coach never gets a soft warning, then a hard warning, and you even suggested an even more stern warning instead of the T, that means you NEVER warned the coach.

Why do I get the feeling that you only posted this to name drop, the camp, the GT coach, and the D1 official.

John,

Sounds like you had a good learning experience, you decided you needed to take care of business and you did. If the GT coach was there this must have been an ncaa sanctioned event. If you worked an ncaa sanctioned event somebody decided you could handle it. Bet you saw a lot of good ball!

Blind
 

Blindzebra- your accusations offend me greatly. You’re questioning my integrity which also offends me. You having a bad night or something? You want to personally attack me like you did take it off of the board. I don’t think highly of people who handle this kind of business in public.


If you wish to say anything further to me please send me an email. I tried to do the same but you have this disabled on your account.

Re: Blind
 

John -- I don't always agree with you about the details, but I gotta say, this is a very, very good post. You can't have been too far off base with the coach, if this is how well you handle this kind of attack on the board.

Re: Re: Blind
 

You did not see his first draft that was deleted before this one replaced it. I did and it was not so genteel.

It was not an attack it was an observation, perhaps re-reading the earlier posts would shed light on why I came to that conclusion.

Re: Re: Blind
 

I can't believe you would even post this when I tried to do exactly what ace said and email you off of the board. I still haven't heard anything yet. -edit- If you agree then agree.

I wanted to edit this post after I left the house this morning. I don't want to make it seem as though I'm attacking Rainmaker but this is something I tried to handle off line.
Rainmaker, Mick, Jurassic, you can't possibly agree when an official admits to not knowing the climate of the game to the point where the game is a 24 point game within 2 minutes. Maybe you can, but IMHO that is a failure on our part (we have all made mistakes). I have T'd a coach up with .6 on the clock but he came at me with some profanity that I will not even try to repeat. I have also let a coach sit there and watch his team get blown out instead of helping him to the locker room early. The two main things are: we have to be aware of the game situation and manage it accordingly whether you decide to issue a T or not and I don't know if yelling "that's an And 1" warrants a T. Of course typing what the coach said does not always convey how it came across live. This is not a personal attack on Ace or anyone else but some things said just don't jive with me (not talking about Ace).

[Edited by tomegun on May 14th, 2004 at 08:26 AM]

John,

No matter how fast the game is moving you HAVE to know what is going on with the clock. We have talked before about the NBA refs and those guys along with a majority of D1 guys could tell you down to the second what time is on the clock at any point in the game. I would take this as a learning experience with game management. I have been learning to always take my eyes off the players to look at the clock every transition. Just something to think about...

Re: Re: Re: Blind
 

Tom -- I tried to reply privately to your e-mail, but it bounced back twice. I'm not sure why.

Quote:

Rainmaker, Mick, Jurassic, you can't possibly agree when an official admits to not knowing the climate of the game to the point where the game is a 24 point game within 2 minutes.

I'm not sure what I agreed with that you're objecting to. Ace posted a description of why it happened, and it implied that he felt he had goofed. You then posted that you thought he had goofed. Your description of why matched what Ace had described. I sort of sarcastically pointed out that you were repeating what Ace had just said. That's all. I didn't agree with him, and I didn't disagree with him. I didn't agree with you, and I didn't disagree with you.

Quote:

Maybe you can, but IMHO that is a failure on our part (we have all made mistakes).

I agree. And I think Ace saw that, too, and has been trying to agree with that.

Quote:

I have T'd a coach up with .6 on the clock but he came at me with some profanity that I will not even try to repeat. I have also let a coach sit there and watch his team get blown out instead of helping him to the locker room early. The two main things are: we have to be aware of the game situation and manage it accordingly whether you decide to issue a T or not and I don't know if yelling "that's an And 1" warrants a T. Of course typing what the coach said does not always convey how it came across live. This is not a personal attack on Ace or anyone else but some things said just don't jive with me (not talking about Ace).

I don't understand why you're so upset about this, but if you'll tell me what the problem is, I'll be glad to try and work out some sort of resolution. I don't see you as attacking anyone, and I don't think I attacked anyone eityer. What should I do differently next time so that this doesn't happen again?

Re: Re: Re: Blind
 

You're right, I didn't see an earlier post by Ace that was hostile. He must have deleted it before I read his later one. I have read all the posts, and I see why you disagreed with his T on the coach. and I see why you feel he fell down on the job. I also think you could have worded it a little more gently, especially since he has admitted several times that he too thinks the technical was a mistake.

This sort of sentence,

"Yeah this clock was so poorly placed that it was completely impossible to see from any spot on the floor, without turning around completely. Right."

... feels like an attack on Ace. If you didn't intend it to feel that way, okay, then you need to back off a little and apologize, not defend yourself. Ace isn't defending his mistake in calling a T. He has admitted several times that it was a mistake. Why are you continuing to criticize?

Rainmaker, Mick, Jurassic, you can't possibly agree when an official admits to not knowing the climate of the game to the point where the game is a 24 point game within 2 minutes. Maybe you can, but IMHO that is a failure on our part (we have all made mistakes).

[/B][/QUOTE]Tom, I think that Ace posted this knowing that he really didn't do a very good job of handling this sitch.I think that he just wanted a little feedback from his peers. It was a learning situation for him, just as it was for us when we did the exact same type of thing in our formative years. To be quite honest, I don't like second-guessing any official who hands out a T in the type of situation that Ace described. I also don't like getting on his butt that much either- mainly because he was there and I wasn't, and I can't possibly know every nuance of everything that was going down.

Having said that, I also think that Ace posted this sitch looking for honest feedback on how to handle the play better next time. He did get honest feedback, even though it was pretty blunt at times. Now it's up to Ace to sift through all the replies and pick out what HE thinks will help him out the most next time that he finds himself in a situation like this. It's called "learning through experience". And we all went through it. And we're all STILL going through it, whether we want to admit it or not.

Rainmaker, I sent you an email.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Blind
 

I'd did not take exception to the T, I took exception to the game management in this situation.

I suppose Ace's replies with, "AND TAKE MY EYES OFF THE PLAYERS!!!!!" "I DONT THANK SO!!!" just passed you by? Yeah, I worded it strongly and if anyone was offended, I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry for my observation. It's there and it is not the first time either.

The post in which you are refereeing to (the hostile one) was probably up on the board for a total of 3 minutes. I had ment to not even hit post which is why I deleted it and replaced it with the calmer one. Lets just all drop it and move on. What stays in this thread stays in this thread because I'd hate for this to carry out of here onto other parts of the board. This is my last post in this thread.

I will also say that officiting is one of the few things in life that I can be bluntly hoenst about when I screw something up... And like i've said a few times already in this thread, I screwed up.

Fine by me.

I would just like to say that I just read all of Ace's posts about this game and I did not see "I screwed up", "I made a mistake" or anything like that. He did say " I could handled it differently. Nuff said." That doesn't sound like "I screwed up" to me. I'm sorry but I just see this a little more black and white than Ace. I mess up all the time and I will say it just like that, "I messed up." I think that having a difficult clock to see would make me that much more aware of it. Also, at some point my partner(s) and I would come together during a timeout to talk about the climate of the game. That is another opportunity to know the situation. I just don't think this can be excused.

That might come back to bite you. We all make mistakes from time to time. Hopefully they can all be excused because we have no choice but to learn from them and move on. Ace isn't required to write, "I screwed up" on the blackboard 100 times to get his hall pass.

Everyone let it go and move on!

Z

F@ck that.

Who made you judge & jury?

Rules of the Road for screw-ups
 

If anybody here ever makes a mistake or error in judgment, however slight, and you choose to discuss this mistake/error on this board, please do the following:

In the subject line put "I am such an idiot" and use the thumbs down icon to fully demonstrate that what follows is a tremendous wrong that you have perpetrated.

Commence your description of the situation with the following lines. "I can't believe I am so stupid. I screwed up so badly that I am reconsidering why I ever thought I could handle reffing {insert appropriate level/gender of basket ball here}. Just so that everyone else can fully understand what a complete jerk I am, here is what happened {last night/last week/last year/to a close friend of mine with sexual dysfunction}."

This will help everyone here understand that you know you made a boo-boo and are simply wishing to share your abject failure with your fellow refs, who would never do such a thing themselves.

Oh, and be sure to email a notification of your posting to BBallCoach to help him with his own vulnerabilities.

Re: Rules of the Road for screw-ups
 

Who sharpens the Hari-Kari knife?

That is a function of the head coach (assistant can't deal with the ref). If BBallCoach is really a head coach, he has first priority, followed by the USBL jerk, then the Coaches K (not sure order of precedence between those two).

If it is Duke's Coach K, Chris Collins does it if it happens at halftime of a televised game.

Hmmm...I would have thought the assignor has a set of pre-sharpened knives available.

Perspective is everything! ;)

Tom, you're way out of line on this one. What you are giving out is simply your OPINION on what Ace shoulda done. You weren't there, and you don't know all the circumstances. These plays get posted as a learning experience for ALL of us, not just the poster. Quit playing God.

Ace, thanks for posting. Please don't let any of this deter you from posting again in the future. If anything, it'll help you develop a thick skin. :D

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 14th, 2004 at 06:38 PM]

Hold on, hold on. I need to back track from my previous post or should I say, I screwed up. :D
I did not mean to come off like someone who doesn't make mistakes or God. I should have made myself clear. Ace got upset about what blindzebra said and posted the following

"And like i've said a few times already in this thread, I screwed up."

Well, he did not say that in any post so, no I'm not Judge and Jury or God but if someone says they said something then at least they should have the courtesy to have said it.

So, zebraman, yes I screw up and I can say it plain and simple like I did at the beginning of this post clearly.

Jurassic, look at my post on page 2 of this thread. I was the first person to post after Ace and this is part of that post
"IMHO, it is difficult to say for sure whether you had no choice. I can't see it but I wasn't there and I didn't go through this the entire game."
This is what you put in your last post to me
"You weren't there, and you don't know all the circumstances."
Sounds kind of similar doesn't it? :)

Also, and this is classic for being taken out of context, this is my post on page 5
"I would just like to say that I just read all of Ace's posts about this game and I did not see "I screwed up", "I made a mistake" or anything like that. He did say " I could handled it differently. Nuff said." That doesn't sound like "I screwed up" to me. I'm sorry but I just see this a little more black and white than Ace. I mess up all the time and I will say it just like that, "I messed up." I think that having a difficult clock to see would make me that much more aware of it. Also, at some point my partner(s) and I would come together during a timeout to talk about the climate of the game. That is another opportunity to know the situation. I just don't think this can be excused."

This is what zebraman had as my quote from that post
"I would just like to say that I just read all of Ace's posts about this game and I did not see "I screwed up", "I made a mistake" or anything like that. I just don't think this can be excused."
So zebraman made it seem like I was saying it can't be excused that Ace didn't use the exact words "I screwed up" when I was talking about excusing the fact that he did not know the game situation. Is anyone questioning the fact that we should know the game situation?

Ace, if I said something to offend you, I'm sorry. I do not want to do anything to discourage you or anyone else from posting.

The next time I screw up, probably my next game, I will post about it. Hey, four guys just tried to change my words around and rip me a new one and I'm not discouraged.

This is life, I post and I'm told I'm out of line. Jurassic posts and several people ask if he is in a bad mood or grumpy.

[Edited by tomegun on May 14th, 2004 at 10:45 PM]