3-person clinic today. Afterward, we're discussing a play I no-called, parent didn't agree; I'm describing situation, my fellow refs disagree with me! I'm very, very sure I remember this discussion here on the board, so I'm sticking to my guns. Tonight, we'll all be on e-mail talking about rule references and so on.

The situation is where a player is chasing a loose ball, tips the ball so it stays in-bounds. The player lands oob, then steps back in bounds and is the first to touch the ball. I hope you-all agree that it's legal.

Corollary question: Above play but player only has one foot in-bounds, when she touches the ball, other foot in the air. Legal?

Tertiary question: If a player is out of bounds, and then steps in with one foot only is the players legally in-bounds? And consequently, can a player who is in-bounding the ball, throw the ball so it bounces off the back of an inbounds player, step in with one foot and retrieve the ball?

I say all of the above are legal. Some very good refs who I respect and look up to all disagree. I hope I'm right, and that you-all will concur. And if anyone can find some of the threads where we discussed this, I'll appreciate the help.

You're right on all of them, Juulie. If NO part of you is touching OOB, you are in-bounds. It's that simple. Rules 7-1-1 and 4-35-1,2 are the references. Airborne players are covered under R4-35-3.

You need to ask them to give you a casebook play to explain why this illegal?

I think your fellow official have either been working football too much or watching it. ;)

Peace

Sounds like they depend more on their "presence" than rule knowledge.

Z

As I like to say quite frequently, there's a very simple explanation for this - they're wrong.

rainmaker, here is a thread.

http://www.officialforum.com/thread/13271

Thanks, Sam, that is the most recent one. And it covers all the bases.

I do think there may be one from about three or four months ago, which I wish I could send along too, but I can't find it right off the bat.

Tell'em your references are 7-1 and 7.1.

Then ask them for theirs'.

They won't have any.

I used 4-35-1 and 4-35-2, 7-1-1, 9-2-2 and 9-2-6. It's hard to prove a negative.

I already got back one e-mail that says, "Hey, you're right. I learned something today." That feels terrific!

Now I saw this several years ago in the NBL which is the professional league in Australia. Mike Mitchell an american import passed the ball off the back of a defender who set up with his back to Mike and Mike jumped in and caught ball and went in for the dunk. The sad thing is he did it again in the game with the same opponent.

Otherwise you are indeed right as far as FIBA as well

All seem legal to me - my only question is can you have a tertiary question without having had a secondary question?

Isn't it nice to find out that you are better than you think you are? Seriously, I hope that the more seasoned officials who disagreed with you are big enough to admit they were wrong. I've run into the same situations, and you get the feeling that even though you are right and present it in a very diplomatic way, feathers are ruffled and you get a rep for being a "know it all".

Juulie,

Let us know the outcome of your follow-up with the other officials. As Zebra44 pointed out, it will be interesting to see if they are big enough to really learn without labeling you unfairly. I've got a lot of faith that if anyone can accomplish it, you can.

These guys can handle it, or I wouldn't have pushed it in the first place. The one guy started when I did, and he did some college this past season, so he's definitely on the fast track, but hasn't been reading this board like I have! Between the two of us, we've got all the bases covered, now it's just a matter of trading the assets back and forth until we are both terrific in all areas.

Sort of - you must have last touched inbounds for this statement to be true 100%. I only mention this because of the inbounder scenario Juulie gave - it is not enough that nothing is touching OOB - one foot must come inbounds after you touched OOB.

re-establishing position
 

This is one of the 25 rules that I have listed
on a one page handout entitled: MOST MISUNDERSTOOD RULES.

The simplified verbiage used amongst BOSS Officials
(in San Diego) when discussing coming back inbounds
after saving a loose ball is that the player trying
to reestablish position back in bounds, must have
SOMETHING IN & NOTHING OUT .

Perhaps your rules committee can construct a handout
given to officials before each season, covering a top ten
list(or 20 most commonly)of rules that are misunderstood
by refs or players.

Ours covers things like:
retrieving an "airball"
sliding on floor to recover a loose ball
movement allowed on throwin
blind screens
etc

You can email me and I will forward a copy directly.

Barry Alman
[email protected]
http://www.sdboss.com

Really? :confused:

And, in his original post, the poor, misunderstood JR also added an addendum that an airborne player is covered differently under R4-35-3. I probably should have more precise, but I must admit that I am certainly not the cunning linguist that you are.

The player can recover, but how they recover it determines what they can do with it next. If they recover with both hands, they can only pass or shoot since saving the ball is part of the dribble and recovering it with both hands ends the dribble. The CB addresses it, but I don't have it handy.

Mregor

First off, that is impossible. :D Secondly, that would only apply to football on Sunday, Monday night, an occasional Thrusday or Saturday.

Mregor

Sorry, I misspoke. :D

But the games on Friday, you cannot just go out of bounds and just come back in and be the first to touch the ball. Now you might not be out of bounds, but there can be penalties that apply.

It is too early for this discussion. I need baseball to end, then I can talk football rules. ;)

Peace

I disagree. How they recover only matters IF they were dribbling prior to the save. Tipping the ball back towards inbounds is just a tip or a bat of a loose ball, not a dribble. If they had a dribble before the save, then a two hand recovery would end that dribble and would not allow a new dribble.

Is it late or did you just disagree with the same thing you said?
I wish I could stay up to see the Lake Squad. Two more seasons and I have to go back to the west coast.

There is a CB play on this. I agree that a tip or a batted ball is not part of the dribble, but if the player controls the ball and throws it back in bounds, that is considered the start of the dribble. I don't have the CB handy, but its in either rule 4 or 7.

Mregor

Mregor, the play described above says the ball is "tipped," not controlled and thrown in bounds.

Even if it's completely controlled with two hands, as long as the player stays in the air while holding the ball (as I'm assuming she would or there would be an oob call), she can recover it with one hand and keep dribbling, after establishing herself inbounds. Or with two hands if she then stops and passes or shoots. It's not a double dribble until after she's touched it with both hands twice.

NFHS Case Book, under Rule 7;
If A1 tips a ball before going OOB, he/she can return inbounds, secure the ball AND dribble.

If A1 controls the ball before going OOB (i.e. grabs it and throws it inbounds before falling OOB), he/she can return inbounds and secure the ball BUT CANNOT dribble.

(I don't have my case book with me right now, but I believe the case also allows for a player to control the ball - "save it" - go OOB - and then return and continue a dribble as long as they don't pick it up.)