Since we all had so much fun with the last discussion of numbers and scorebooks, here's a different scenario for you. Two players with jersey #4 for A, but one is in book as 14 and is wearing wrong jersey. A1 starts and commits a foul or two (I think - it was the first quarter, who knows for sure!). A2 later enters game and also fouls (or did he - I can't remember). A1 re-enters game at beginning and ref notices that two players have #4, issues T and A2 changes jersey to #14. #4 is in book with 3 fouls - who gets them?

If A2 did all of the fouling, we have given him 3 free fouls if we assess all fouls to #4 (A1). Opposite is true if A1 did all fouling and A2 gets "credit." But any division of fouls would be somewhat arbitrary.

I don't believe this one is in the books so here's an opinion. ;)

Unless the officials have definite information relative to what fouls were called on which player, #4 would keep all three fouls.

try to get away with this
 

Tell the coach that the book shows #4 with 3 fouls, so everyone who was wearing #4 has 3 fouls. If he complains that it's not fair, tell him that you'll then give all 6 fouls to the same player and that #4 has now fouled out, but #14 has to come in with one foul that was left over from #4 having six.

When he gets that glassy look in his eyes, tell him you'll compromise and give all the fouls to him and now he and his assistant have to leave and his trainer is seat-belted along with the school's AD and mascot.

Then tell him you had a long day at work and were only kidding. He probably won't laugh.

Guess what? I had a long day at work, too - can you tell? And now I'm getting ready for a game tonight. Boy, those coaches are really lucky ;)

Re: try to get away with this
 

Thanks Mark, I needed that. :)

My guess is you stick the real #4 with all three, and then you string up the freshman scorekeeper.

Is the scorekeeper responsible for remembering a face with every uniform number? I really am just asking, because it isn't clear to me who should be responsible for catching this error. If two players wear the same number and don't go in at the same time or sub for each other, I can see how a scorekeeper (and a ref) might fail to notice.

This is not just a hypothetical. On two different teams, I have had kids show up with "last year's jersey" which has a number that duplicates another player's number (this happens in AAU clubs when players change teams, and in rec ball when you get the same color uniform two years straight). One I caught before the game and fixed the problem by taping over one number, but in the other the second player was in the game before I noticed. We did the tape thing to change the number and took the T.

I think first you need to play a round of "To Tell the Truth" to figure out who committed the fouls.

As to the scorekeeper, don't blame him/her - blame the coach who can't keep track of numbers. Team's first boys JV game of the year (away). My school's JV team has the hand-me-downs from V and often several repeating #'s. I told the coach this well before the game, but he still didn't change it!!! Luckily, the second player (I think the # was 2) didn't go in at all until the first #2 fouled out - so we just let him play in that jersey.

Of course, opposing fans wanted a 'T' and accused us of cheating.

Best "call" all night (this was during varsity) was when some obnoxious man behind the table (I believe he was the AD) kept shouting "CHEATERS!!" for every violation - even the one the officials called!! (Ex: "TWEET" - Carry - "Cheaters, Cheaters, CHEEEEEEEATERRRRRRRSSSSSSS!!!!!) I felt like turning around and giving him one of those glued up whistles.

There are two books. Each one should know all the team members, and if "Bob" checks in as number 4, and he sees that "Steve" is in the book as number four, he should catch it right away.

From my experience, by the second quarter, I can pretty much match a face up with a number for the kids who are playing the lion share of the minutes (especially if it is the second or third time I have them in the year). If my crew has called 3 fouls on two different #4's, I think we might have noticed as well. Granted it would take us much longer to notice than it should take the scorekeeper.

Pregame can resolve this (most of the time)
 

The first thing I do as an official is I count the number of players on the team I am watching and report it to the official who looks at the scorebook. I always count twice to make sure I have the right number of players. If my number and the number of players in the book do not match, we know we have a problem. Either I miscounted (twice), there is a player who is not on the floor for the pregame warm-up, or there is a player not in the book.

If I am checking the book, I hope the official scorer put all the players in the book in numerical order (recommended but not required). I try to check for duplicate numbers but I can certainly imagine missing duplicates if there are 15 players in the book NOT in numerical order.

Bottom line is that I think we need to take our pre-games seriously and we might be able to avoid this situation.

Just a thought.

Thanks! Good topic.

I always draw a line or x or something below the last player, write the number of players, and initial if the number on players matches the book. This lets us know where the last player is, and the number that should be out there. In this situation I was assuming the false #4 was in the book as a different number. In this case we probably won't catch it in pregame. If the teams take off their warm-ups I always glance through to make sure there are no dups, but they don't always do that.

I always hate to compare sports, but we take care of this real quick in volleyball. During pregame you take the roster, walk onto the floor, and x off everyone. That way you get an accurate count, and you know there are no dup numbers. It takes 5 minutes, and all is good.

Re: try to get away with this
 

Mark--

It's only 6:30 am and I am already in tears about some medical things with my baby, and about some other personal issues. But this has really changed the tone and feeling of my day. I think I might actually be able to face it!!

thanks a lot, I needed that laugh...

Sayin' a prayer
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

[i] Mark-- It's only 6:30 am and I am already in tears about some medical things with my baby, and about some other personal issues. But this has really changed the tone and feeling of my day. I think I might actually be able to face it!! thanks a lot, I needed that laugh...

Best of luck, Juulie!
mick