I find it interesting that, in my observation, the higher the level the ref, and the better, the more likely they are to talk over a call with their partner and make sure the right call is made, even if they have to over-rule one another.

I have such respect for a ref that does this and for the one that gets over-ruled to accept his partners help by going over and explaining it all to the coaches.

What I don't respect, is when one ref sees a tip or a correctable error and will not over-rule his partner.

Do they feel this will crush the guy if they go over and say, "I got white tipping the ball after the pass was made, I think it should go the other way" then they can talk it out.

As I said in another thread, partner can never overrule. Partner can quietly suggest, that's it. And most partners won't offer unsolicited help, either. I mean, they will only make a suggestion if they are asked. What this usually means is that they respect the dignity of the other ref and don't want to belittle their partner or betray their partner's trust by causing others to question his judgment. For this kind of help to work, partners need a certain level of acquaintance or familiarity, and sometimes it's not worth the risk. Remember that the partner is going to be wrong as often as the calling official is. Just because the partner sees it going in your favor, doesn't make him smarter! (insert cute smilie here)

I'd like to add a couple of things: first, every official's goal is ultimately to get the call right, but there's a reason why officials have coverage areas. To fans, coaches and players an OOB call may be obvious, but as an official, I will not offer unsolicited help unless I am 110% sure that I saw the play differently than my partner, and even then, I will confer and let him make the call. A ball may have gone out off of blue, but white may have committed a foul and my partner wanted basically to save a foul call on an OOB play. Another instance when I might offer help is on a travel call, in which my partner can't see the ball, and I clearly see him lose possession, then I would offer help, but again, only if I'm positive. Sometimes I may have a different opinion on a play than my partner, but he's supposed to make that OOB call, and to offer constant opinions on every disagreement serves only to ask for more appeals and can undermine the integrity of the game.

Surely these are topics discussed at a pre-game conference?

Sorry for the "correctable error" thing, while I have skimmed the rule book, I have not read it word for word.

And I agree, you don't want the partners having a conference on every call.

Its the obvious ones when the partner actually admits to me, before the ball has been inbounded that he saw the tip, or whatever, but won't do anthing about it.

I see it as a matter of confidence. And I respect both officials in situations like this when they make sure the call was correct. This has happened against and for me many times. When it happens against me, and the official comes to explain it to me, usually with a sheepish demeanor, I will say, "no problem, as long as you guys talked it out"

:eek:

Tiger, your assignment for the summer is to read the rule and case books, word-for-word. You'll be amazed how much you'll learn.
_______________________________
Edit: The "eek" face was b/c I thought you were an official, Tiger. It's a little more understandable that a coach has not read the whole book. Nevertheless, I stand by my advice. Read the books, especially the case book. You'll be amazed!

[Edited by ChuckElias on Apr 19th, 2004 at 09:39 AM]

Your right Chuck, I should read it word for word, but I won't. Not because I think I know it all, but because when it comes to basketball reading, I want to get through Coach Wooden's new book, Review Coach K's leading with the heart, Just bought a book on teaching post play.

Will my team benefit from me knowing all the rules, yes. But will they benefit even more if I read more about coaching, yes.

So, I will remain calm on the sidelines knowing I don't know it all. I bet you wish all coaches were as mild mannered as me.

YES!
 

And coach, where do you coach?? I am in the Indianapolis area and would like to know where you coach! I travel all over Indiana to do games and would like to have a coach who let me officiate while he coached!

This has been said, but I will clarify.
 

Tiger,

I am not going to offer information if I was not in good position to give help. And the only help I am going to give is on OOB plays and maybe with a foul when the ball goes in. And on the foul all I am telling my partner is "the ball went in," I am not telling him to count the shot. Often times you say the first tip, but did not see the last tip that was right in my partner's area. And all I am doing is giving information, it is their choice to decide if my information is valid or tell me that "I missed the player that did......" But that will be discussed in our pregame and will not be a very long conversation. But often times coaches want us to give help when we are not looking at the play in question. We all are not looking at the same things.

Peace

Indy Ref, You'll have to come up to Warsaw to ref my games.

How about this...
 

Why not read the books you referenced and the rule book? I don't understand how a person can be the most effective coach possible without having more than a fundamental understanding of the rules :confused:

It is not a difficult read, especially when taken in pieces. Read a rule a day (which is only 10 +/- small pages). Or read when you're sittin down for a few minutes each day (read what you want into this statement ;)) You'll be shocked at how quickly you get through it. I'll bet you Wooden and Coach K have read the rules.

While I am sure those books are good reads, I would bet you would get just as much in terms of how to coach from reading and understanding the rule book itself. The rulebook is the foundation of the game and you can't move on to the other stuff until you understand the foundation. ;)

Overruling another official: My own experience
 

I once had a fellow official overrule one of my calls. He was on the end line where the ball was to be put into play, and he said, "No, no, blue ball." I was floored! I couldn't believe he reversed a call that was not even near his area.

During the next break, I quietly told him that I had made the right call and asked why he overruled it; he said, no joke: "I let that go for the other team earlier." In other words, "Make up call." I have never actually heard a fellow referee say that before (and this was a varsity official).

After the game was over, he said he didn't like that I didn't support HIS calls.... Needless to say, I lost all respect for that official and haven't worked with him since. I am just glad that it was just a recreational league game.

Re: Overruling another official: My own experience
 

Eric, I'm not being critical, just trying to understand. If your partner was on the endline, and the ball was to be put back in play on the endline, then if this was OOB call (which is what it sounds like to me), wouldn't it have been your partner's call to begin with?

I'm having trouble picturing why you were in a position to make this call. Maybe it wasn't an OOB call?

Re: Re: Overruling another official: My own experience
 

Chuck -- I was figuring that the ball went out on the endline, but the last touch was clear back above the key, maybe. Eric was trail and saw the last touch clearly, partner couldn't possibly have.

A partner cannot overrule the other official on a travel call or a foul, unless there were simultanious whistles for different calls. If I see a "tip", I'll go over to my partner, quietly, and tell him/her what I saw, and if they choose, they can change their call. You must support your partners calls, even if you don't agree with them, just as you expect them to support your calls.

Re: Re: Re: Overruling another official: My own experience
 

Certainly possible, Juulie. But even if that's the way it happened, it was still Eric's partner's call to make. If Eric was sure that the call was incorrect, then he can go to the partner and tell him what he saw. But I hope he didn't make this OOB call (if that's even what it was) from the Trail position, and then get upset when his partner correctly made the call on his own line.

Eric, care to shed some light?

You're right, of course. I was thinking of my own experience where I would reflexively make a call that was technically not mine. Eric's situation is the hardest to get right, in my opinion -- it's completely anti-instinctive. Assuming the play was as you and I have been discussing it.

Maybe Eric's play happened on T's sideline by the baseline (right on the corner?) in a two-whistle game.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

And most partners won't offer unsolicited help, either. I mean, they will only make a suggestion if they are asked. What this usually means is that they respect the dignity of the other ref and don't want to belittle their partner or betray their partner's trust by causing others to question his judgment

I disagree Juulie. I will offer unsolicited help if, and only if, I am absolutely, positively certain that I am right. If I believe the call is wrong, its not enough. Furthermore, it is the goal of my partner and myself to get the call right. I would betray my partner’s trust if I was absolutely certain of a call that he made was wrong (I speaking of OOB here, I'd never offer an opinion on a foul/violation call) and I kept my mouth shut. I'll let him know what I saw. If I offer that, then he knows I am sure without a doubt. That is the level of trust most officials I know work with.

BTW, this happens maybe once every 3-5 games.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Remember that the partner is going to be wrong as often as the calling official is. Just because the partner sees it going in your favor, doesn't make him smarter! (insert cute smilie here)

Again, seeing it go the other way and being sure enough to say something are very different. If my partner interjects with some information, it's right and I want to hear it.

You mean "as mild mannered as I.";)

I had one last weekend. I was Trail and the Lead official blew the whistle for an OOB on his sideline. The ball was traveling away from Lead and since I was properly watching my area, I saw the touch by team A. He called it the way he saw it. I came in and asked him if he wanted any other information. Wisely, he asked me if it was off team A. I told him it was, so he signaled in the other direction. Parents started to yell and the Team A coach said, "get back on D, it was a good call."

Regardless of what A-coach or A-parents said, we got it right and handled it right.

You need better partners.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by footlocker
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

And most partners won't offer unsolicited help, either. I mean, they will only make a suggestion if they are asked. What this usually means is that they respect the dignity of the other ref and don't want to belittle their partner or betray their partner's trust by causing others to question his judgment

I disagree Juulie. I will offer unsolicited help if, and only if, I am absolutely, positively certain that I am right. If I believe the call is wrong, its not enough. Furthermore, it is the goal of my partner and myself to get the call right. I would betray my partner’s trust if I was absolutely certain of a call that he made was wrong (I speaking of OOB here, I'd never offer an opinion on a foul/violation call) and I kept my mouth shut. I'll let him know what I saw. If I offer that, then he knows I am sure without a doubt. That is the level of trust most officials I know work with.

BTW, this happens maybe once every 3-5 games.

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker Quote: Remember that the partner is going to be wrong as often as the calling official is. Just because the partner sees it going in your favor, doesn't make him smarter! (insert cute smilie here) Again, seeing it go the other way and being sure enough to say something are very different. If my partner interjects with some information, it's right and I want to hear it. Quote: Originally posted by TigerBball So, I will remain calm on the sidelines knowing I don't know it all. I bet you wish all coaches were as mild mannered as me. You mean "as mild mannered as I.";)

While I agree with what you say I don't think we should limit ourselves to offering new information to when we are absolutely certain we are right. If you think you saw something your partner did not then go tell him. Only takes a second or 2.

Hello everyone,
First post to this forum... thought this was as good a topic as any to weigh in on. I work out of a relatively small pool (90% of assignments with same 10 people) in Montana, as such, my knowledge of my partners is thorough and comfort level is pretty high. One of the "understandings" we have is that... if your partner comes over to you and asks "...did you get a good look at that?" That means, there is a pretty good chance that you may have missed something and probably should change it if you have "any" doubt. Basically what I am getting at...is there isn't all that many times (if any?) when you should step in on judgement calls, but when you do, you had better be right. Now, rules interpretations, that is a different story.

In any case, I look forward to future discussions in this forum.

offball,
Welcome here. :)
If my partner comes to me, changing my call is automatic.
If we discuss it, it'll be later... and in private.
mick

ditto, 100%.

No, I believe "me" is correct.

:rolleyes:

I feel like a geek for knowing this
 

Nope, it's "as mild mannered as I." The best way to tell is to realize this is really a truncated sentence. If you finish it, it would be "As mild mannered as I am." "As mild mannered as me is" would sound silly.