http://tinyurl.com/2beuo

--Rich

I read the article - shocking.

It worries me that there is always the possibility that the same thing could happen to me. I blame the AD for not stopping this from happening. I blame the prosecutor for not prosecuting. This game that I love so much is being dirtied by a few violent fans that are living their lives vicariously through their kids athletic endeavors.

Let's hurt fans like that in the best way. Sue them blue. Do it legally. Officials organizations should take them to civil court. Hurt them in their pockets. The schools should severely admonish such behavior. Ban people like that from games. I'm sure we can really respond to acts like this. No mas!

Don't get mad...get even.

I agree that there need to be consequences, I disagree about revenge. "An eye for an eye, and the whole world ends up blind." What needs to happen to solve the problem? Our entire country needs to learn the mantra, "Maybe someone else knows more than I do." This isn't just for sports officials to be concerned about. It's for policemen, government workers, doctors, lawyers, and anyone else who must exercise authority over us regular folks based on a body of knowledge and experience that us regualr folks don't have any comprehension of. There's a time to stand up against authority when it is used improperly, but there's also a time to submit to authority, even when I don't understand or agree. And our whole country could use a good anger managment seminar. I'd wager that all of these assaults grow out of unrealistic expectations that are based on faulty perceptions of reality. And that, my friends, is a recipe for Rollin' Rage.

How do we get folks to change? (1) We start by setting the example. Outside of sports, when we find ourselves on the short end of the stick, we need to see a larger point of view, adjust our expectations, problem solve, and when appropriate, submit to reality. (2)We can also find ways to talk others out of their rage-tendencies. "Yea, it's a long line, but the checker is doing the best she can." "I know. I wish I hadn't waited until Dec 24 to do my Christmas shopping too. Know any good elephant jokes?" so forth and so on. (3) We can see to it that the outbursts of violence such as this article talks about are dealt with appropriate in the public view. We need to find ways to project a mature detachment as a desireable attitude. We need to hold these people up, not as monsters, but at pathetic creatures who need our sympathy not our vengenance. (4) at the same time, we need to see to it that there are consequences and that they are certain. Civil suit seems completely reasonable, and it should encompass both compensatory and punitive damages. And it should not take too long. (5) and we need to find ways to REQUIRE the prosecutor to act. In Oregon, we have one of those laws that requires conviction, and imposes mandatory sentence, on people convicted of assaulting an official.

Whew! I guess that's enough lecture for one day.

Sheesh, I thought NYC was tough on crime!

I hope you meant to write "requires prosecution." :)

I suppose we in N.Z. are pretty lucky in this respect. We are isolated in the south pacific, have a population of 4 million, our police do not carry guns and they still have respect for the sportspeople in uniform.

Nevadaref, I think he wrote it right. Some states actually require a conviction when it comes to assaulting a sports official. Here in Nebraska, it's required to prosecute, and if convicted, there MUST be jail time of some kind, and MUST be a fine of some kind, and MUST be probation of some kind. It's not up to the judge to say, oh, I'll just give ya day in jail, that's all. The men and women in black robes must have all 3 in their sentences or face disciplinary proceedings with the state supreme court. Failure of a prosecutor to prosecute can lead to disciplinary action with the bar association, which ironically is controlled by the supreme court. Prosecutors also face the possibility of a backlash that can get them recalled from office or booted out in the next election. Accountability is a key word in Nebraska.

Thanks, Rich.
Scarey!

From <B>Dakota</B> on the Softball board:

<font color=blue>assault and battery
n. the combination of the two crimes of threat (assault) and actual beating (battery). They are both also intentional civil wrongs for which the party attacked may file a suit for damages.


assault
1) v. the threat or attempt to strike another, whether successful or not, provided the target is aware of the danger. The assaulter must be reasonably capable of carrying through the attack. In some states if the assault is with a deadly weapon (such as sniping with a rifle), the intended victim does not need to know of the peril. Other state laws distinguish between different degrees (first or second) of assault depending on whether there is actual hitting, injury or just a threat. "Aggravated assault" is an attack connected with the commission of another crime, such as beating a clerk during a robbery or a particularly vicious attack. 2) n. the act of committing an assault, as in "there was an assault down on Third Avenue." Assault is both a criminal wrong, for which one may be charged and tried, and civil wrong for which the target may sue for damages due to the assault, including for mental distress.</font>

Law.com dictionary

What <i>she</i> meant was to require prosecution, and if it meets the standards for assault, to require conviction of the crime of "assaulting a sports official", which means a stricter list of required punishments.

Sigh.

Thanks rainmaker, sounds similar to what we have in Nebraska, although how a conviction is gotten can be up to the judge or jury, depending on the defendant's wishes. That's scary as hell if it comes to a jury. Imagine a bunch of ref haters on that thing!

I put your very thoughtful and well written post in a small pot & let it boil for 20 minutes.

Here's what was left:

God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Are you saying that refs need to adopt that, or fans/coaches/players/announcers/sportswriters?

Yes.

Make sure...
 

everyone reads "the rest of the story" straight from the Helena Paper:

"Prosecutor considering charges over fight"

By CAROLYNN BRIGHT - IR Staff Writer - 03/23/04

It wasn't all fun and games at last weekend's 13th annual Swish tournament - but sometimes that's what happens when grownups get involved.

City Prosecutor Bob Wood is evaluating whether to file criminal charges against a tournament referee and a scorekeeper who allegedly broke into a fistfight as a result of a dispute over the officiating of one of the youth basketball games.

Wood said he likely will make a decision today, once he has an opportunity to review written statements from the alleged participants in the fracas.

According to Helena Police Chief Troy McGee, officers were called to the YMCA gymnasium at about 5 p.m. Saturday after tournament spectators reported a fight.

When police arrived at the scene, they found the referee, bleeding from a cut near his right eye.

McGee said the referee told officers that several of the spectators disagreed, loudly, with several calls he made during one of the games.

At the end of the game, he made his way to the score table to wrap up some necessary paperwork, and the scorekeeper seated there allegedly voiced his own concerns with the referee's officiating.

According to McGee, the referee said he was afraid the scorekeeper was going to assault him, so he took the pre-emptive measure of shoving the scorekeeper.

The scorekeeper allegedly responded by punching the referee.

Ninety-four teams from across the state, comprised of fifth- through eighth-graders, participated in the event.

We ought to learn a lesson here. Do NOT be the one to start anything! If someone complains about our refereeing, WALK AWAY! If this official walks away, I bet nothing happens!

Re: Make sure...
 

Thanks, Indy.

Article 1

Article 2

These are two articles that have different opinions or views of what took place, but I think one point that needs to be seen here is that parents or biased fans should not be scorekeepers. Most of the time there are not problems but I have definitely had my fair share of scorekeepers (parents) that complain about calls made against their team or kid. This is the last thing that I need to worry about when I go to discuss the number of fouls or to remind them when to stop the clock. I know that this saves the tournament money by not having to pay for scorekeepers but an alternative would be to require a parent from the game before or after their kids game to keep score. It's easier to ignore confrontation from fans in the stands but almost impossible to ignore it when it's coming from part of the scorekeeping crew.

This referee even if he did shove the scorekeeper had to do it because he was unable to avoid confrontation while trying to perform his duties. I don't know exactly what happened b/c I wasn't there but this might not have occured if there were neutral scorekeepers!

I wasn't there either, so I don't know what really happened as well. But when you find a neutral scorekeeper for grade school basketball, let me know! ;)

Here's something that a reader wrote in response to the Article

Response:

I'm glad to see people that are not officials speak out about it or even see this view point (even if it's only 1% of the population)

"According to (Police Chief) McGee, the referee said he was afraid the scorekeeper was going to assault him, so he took the pre-emptive measure of shoving the scorekeeper.

The scorekeeper allegedly responded by punching the referee."

Here we are second guessing the police when we don't have all the facts and don't know the rule book (Montana Criminal Code). I guess we've become police fanboys.

Perhaps.

But I'd like to see law enforcement step it up in general.

One of the most common things I hear is -- there are already laws on the books.

Yet fans think they have the right to come to my car and scream and swear at me after a baseball game while I'm undressing in the parking lot.

This is assault. When I suggested that once to a policeman and asked him to get rid of these idiots, I was laughed at. I then asked him what would happen if someone came up and screamed and swore at him after he got done directing traffic and told him how horrible he was. The officer told me that person would be arrested.

What's the difference?

Who's second guessing the police?

I agree, it's become accepted to yell & scream at officials. The thing I hate worse is that it is usually around young kids and they are learning that this is accepted behavior. But if they acted the same way by yelling and screaming at a teacher for something they disagreed with the parent would tell them that this is not acceptable.

The difference is the police has arrest powers, and we don't. Ya gotta be careful around cops, because you can get arrested for swearing at them now. A little thing called disturbing the peace. It's amazing what little you can do around a cop and end up behind bars nowadays. But it happens to anyone else, the cops will just take a report and let the prosecutors decide if an arrest is necessary.

Tha may be true in some jurisdictions, but probably not in most. Under Oregon law, for example, the only real difference between a commissioned police officer and a private citizen is that a private citizen can not serve a warrant. A citizen can in fact make a citizen's arrest - of course if they due so without reasonable justification they can be sued for false arrest and held liable, just like the police. A police officer presented with a correctly executed declaration of a citizen arrest must take the specified suspect into custody.

Why are you refereeing if you can't take sh*t from parents. Don't worry about what they're saying, if they threaten you report it. A parent who threatened one of our referees was recently fined $300 by the league. If its the scorekeeper, boot him/her. At the beginning of every game, my partner will go through his team lecture with the table officials. If they don't play into that team, we find someone else, usually someone from the visiting team.

But another thing that's amazing, is that parants can do whatever they want to, but we are scrutenized so badly. I'm facing a complaint because when I called the 5th foul on a player I apparantly said "That's 5 your gone" and the mother (***'t coach) thinks that i didn't like her kid. She fails to understand that I say that everytime someone gets fould out. ALthough in this case, i don't think i said anything because i was the calling official. My point, if we're going to be carved apart for one tiny mistake, then every parent who warrants it should be charged no questions asked.

ref18, perhaps a more subtle approach is called for here. Simply saying, "That's 5" is generally enough to a player and coach. They know what it means.
That said, it sounds like Mommy needs to quit coaching if she can't realize her daughter is in 5th grade.

"A parent who threatened one of our referees was recently fined $300 by the league."

Could you explain how a "league" can fine a parent.

What law would that fall under?

Thanks,

Tee

Not that it makes the complaint against you right, but you might want to limit your verbage which will limit what people can misinterpret. What I say to a player and/or coach is "That's Five". 99.9% understand that that means they are out of the game. Not much they can read into that!

Just a suggestion FWIW! ;)

[Edited by BBall_Junkie on Apr 8th, 2004 at 04:29 PM]

Ya, after this incident, i have to change what i say.

I realize how it might be felt that this statement reflected bias on my part, especially when I called the majority of the kids 5 fouls.

The only problem is the game was a week ago, and the complaint came in last night, and i can't remeber if i said this or not. I remember calling the foul (a hold), I remember T'ing up the assistant coach (he should've been the head coach, he was the most experienced on the bench), but I don't remeber if i said this or anything to the player on his 5th.

<I>"She fails to understand that I say that everytime someone gets fould out."

"...I don't remeber if i said this or anything to the player on his 5th."</I>

T'is a tangled web we weave.... ;)
mick

Ah, but Mick, he already said why he's not sure on this one. He called the foul, so he may or may not have been the one to inform the player. :)

Everytime is all the time most o' the time. :)

Well now, I can't argue with that, can I? ;)

By everytime i mean when i'm the non-calling official, responsible for handling the notification.

In this game, I was the calling official. I don't say anything to the player when i call the 5th.

That's why i'm not sure as to whether i said it or not. If i was the non-calling official i would've said this. But in this case i wasn't.

And with the complaint coming a week after the game, i can't remeber many of the small details like how i worded this situation or if i even said anything at all.

I still have to write the report though, and i'm not sure how to word this specific area. My computer's on the fritz so hopefully that buys me some time.

Doesn't have to have any law.

Private organizations can establish their own rules ad regulations (bylaws, etc.) which may include fines if they wish. They may not have the authority to collect on the fine but can certainly bar the parent from games and/or prohibit their children from team participation if they refuse to pay.

I don't know whether this particular case has all the right things in place to support the fine, but it's not impossible.

With regards to the fine the league laid out, it was league specific. If the fine wasn't paid, none of the teams from that club could participate in the provincial championships, nor could they recieve any of their registration fees back.

IANAL, but my guess is that the parent signed something when their child joined the league stating they'd be subject to such a fine.

Probably not worth going to small claims court over it, but you can easily just refuse to let the kid re-register until the fine is paid.

Apologies for the late response. Rainmaker, no where in my post do I mention revenge. What I meant by "get even" was not to stand idly by complaining, not doing anything to prevent this type of action in the future. I also used the quote as an attention getter to stir discussion. Looks like I got your attention.

Re: Make sure...
 

From the article by Jay Scott: "one of our Helena basketball officials had his face bloodied and bruised and was beaten to incoherence after a 7th-grade game at a local gym last month. You don't want to see the pictures"

From article by Carolynn Bright: "The scorekeeper allegedly responded by punching the referee".

Allegedly punched the referee vs. beaten to incoherence Huh? Walk away, yes.....but never turn your back on a fan.

T-man, I caught that discrepancy as well. It's like the stories are about two completely separate events.

Snaq, truth is probably somewhere in between, most likely closer to Jay Scott's rendition. Depends on their sources.
"According to McGee, the referee said he was afraid the scorekeeper was going to assault him, so he took the pre-emptive measure of shoving the scorekeeper." That does not ring true. If you are afraid someone is going to assault you, your normal reaction wouldnt be to shove him. You might be ready to duck or maybe back up. Sounds to me like someone is trying to protect the scorekeeper