I was playing in a Rec ball tourney recently using FIBA rules. On quite a few occasions players would stand up while holding the ball and there was never a travel call. Similarly in the few games I reffed (in this league players have to ref some early round games) when I called a travel for this I took a lot of heat from a coach. In fact I had my first 2 technicals on a coach and ejection because he was so pissed I called these travels-and started pulling a Bobby Knight on the sideline.

Since I was the only one ever calling this a travel I wondered if FIBA was different and asked the "real" refs when they were reffing my team in the later rounds. They supposedly confirmed that it is not a travel in FIBA to stand up with the ball (without even dribbling). Then I did what I should have done in the first place and checked the FIBA rules from the 2000 rule book:

"It is legal when a player, whilst holding the ball, falls on the floor or, whilst lying or sitting on the floor, gains control of the ball.
It is a violation if the player then slides, rolls, or attempts to stand up, whilst holding the ball"

Which confirms that it is a travel to stand up but how could it NOT be a travel to fall down while holding the ball? OZ ref or any other FIBA experts out there know if this is still true? I could not find any rule changes since 2000 that discuss this. What kind of logic is FIBA using that falling down with the ball is not a travel?

Incidently when I kicked the coach out it got kind of comical. The first T was for swearing at me across the floor, second for kicking a chair 30 seconds later after we lined up for the free throws. Coach refused to leave so I calmly stood by the scorer and told him to start a stop watch and if he didn't start to leave in a minute the game was over. Coach started to leave but I think he realized he was making an A$$ out of himself so in what I guess was an attempt at humor tried to rush me and was easily held back by his players. Now I am 6' 8" 210 lbs. and the coach was a foot shorter, 50 lbs. lighter and 10+ years older than me. I was just standing there watching him try and come at me while the scorer, a good friend of mine, was laughing at the possible match up and said "go ahead". All in all it was a good training for me as I have never T'd a coach in a real MS/HS game yet and could use the experience of getting the job done while staying calm. And I probably could have avoided the situation by T'ing him up 30 minutes earlier when he deserved it but I just warned him.

[Edited by oc on Apr 1st, 2004 at 11:22 PM]

Only FEEBLE would use the word "whilst".

In what situation would a player holding the ball fall on the floor?

A1 goes up for a rebound, gets control of the ball, lands awkwardly and falls on the floor.

The general consensus is that when a player is on the floor they can get up if they are on their knees. If they are lying on the ground they cannot get up and play on because it is regarded as a travelling violation.

In regards to rolling around on the floor - if the player is backside down on the ground, they can move the ball from the left side to the right side (visa-versa), they can throw/pass the ball away, as long as they don't roll over on the ball etc. ie. get a distinct advantage, if an advantage is received I tend to ping it and call the travel.

I think the rule used to be interpreted such that a player could not slide across the floor with the ball – they can now do this as long as they aren’t sliding into other players (a foul), or get up after a slide (a travel).

Cheers ... a happy 'not so feeble' ref

Ping?!? It's nice to have you, though, and I applaud your correct spelling of consensus. That's a rare accomplishment!

I this particular discussion, there are two rules that are different than Fed/NCAA.

1. In FIBA, it is legal for a player to fall down whilst holding the ball. True.
2. In FIBA, it is travel if a player's momentum causing him to slide with the ball.

Apart from that, I believe all other rules are similar. Attempting to get up ang getting up are traveling.

Jay

Looks like Juulie has a new best friend. :p

You're off the hook!?

Can we get a <em>consensus of opinion</em> on that characterization? ;) ;)

Posted only to bug Juulie. ;)

Why is this supposed to bug me? Did you think I was being sarcastic about the spelling of consensus? It comes from a similar background as "consent", not "census". It's spelled with 3 esses. Being a Quaker, I need to know these things!

Not spelling...I just used it in a grammaticlly redundant way...."consensus of opinion". Since consensus means opinion by the group and my phrase essentially meant "opinion of opinion". I figured you'd jump on that!

[Edited by Camron Rust on Apr 20th, 2004 at 04:30 PM]

I see. I guess I'm not at my perceptive best today. A little distracted by life.

Hey guys.

The way I was taught it was this - imagine the player that falls over has instead jumped and is in the air, if the player's feet touch the ground (ie when trying to stand up) then they have taken the equivalent to a step, therefore it's a travel. If they make no attempt to stand up, then they can lie there for as long as they want.

As to the previous comment about a players momentum - if a player dives for the ball (say on their stomach with feet in the air), grabs the ball and then slides due to the momentum of the the slide (and they make not attempt to stand) then this is legal.

BUT - if the attempt to promote their movement (ie wriggling or rolling on the floor), or they attempt to stand - then it's a travel (unless of course they start a dribble before starting to stand - and yes I have seen it done!)

Well I am glad English is still known on this forum :)

I apologise if correct spellings and loose slang was too much for some :)

...further to 'wriggling on the ground' unless they roll there body over (from front to back an visa-versa) - it is not a travel, I have been told this a few times at a number of tournaments both state and national. The consensus, :), it seems has changed over the past few years, allowing for more leniency. hehe I just wanted to use another word that is often misspelt!

Not to worry. I don't really care, just having a little fun since things have slowed down a little. ;)

Hi, been waiting for you to answer this one, being one of the only FIBA guys on this board. Still not getting it. How can you suppose a player is in the air while lying on the floor? How can a player fall down without changing their pivot foot to a pivot butt/knee/side? Is this one of those things that just is?

Guys
I am a FIBA official doing mainly education these days.

You have to get back to the philosophy of the game and realise that rules are there so the game is played fairly and no one gains an unfair advantage and of course to make the game exciting.

Now the falling down applies mostly at a time when the player is receiving the ball and is off balance and falls to the ground. This gives no advantage but certainly a great disadvantage. Now if the player rolls or slides then they are causing the opposition a disadvantage in attempting to secure the ball. Otherwise the interpretation appears to be the same as yours.

A player can start a dribble whilst on the floor and then stand up.

Nice meeting you, Malcolm. From now on, I can get FIBA education, how nice!

I'll buy that. Thanks.

Same interpretation as me - but he didn't use the word ping :)

Probably ask Hank Nichols if you could!