Women should not be flying high

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...hitlock/040401

Hit the nail on the head.
 

Candance Parker is a great player. If anyone saw her in the last two State Title games, she is going to be a great one. But all we can focus on is the fact that she can dunk.

Good article.

Peace

Here we go again
 

I do not consider myself part of the PC crowd by any stretch of the imagination. However, as I read the article I was struck by the fact that once again we have some man trying to define the role of women in sports. :rolleyes: As for male qualities that women should not try to emulate...how about condescending to women about what worthless weasels all males are (which he does not believe for the merest fraction of a second) and pandering to men about how women should stick to playing the kind of ball they're good at As a writer he may be shallow, but then again, he's just a man.

Re: Here we go again
 

Removing gender from the equations, were hers the best dunks in the competition? If yes, then she wins. If not, then she shouldn't have.

They looked like dunks I see in HS games by kids who can barely get over the rim. I didn't see the other dunks, so I can't say if they were better.

Re: Re: Here we go again
 

Not that simple. She won partly becasue the other players did not even make a successful dunk. You could not get points for what you try and failed at, you just had to complete a dunk. If the last competetor had just completed a regular dunk, he might have won the competition. But he was trying all this behind the back, thru the legs and 360 bounce the ball off the floor attempts and missed all of them.

Well she made it to the final round by completing dunks. I think the others thought the would WOW the crowd and be spectacular. But if you cannot do the basic thing, which is dunk, you do not deserve to win the contest. I give her credit for winning, but she did not just outscore better dunks, she actually completed a dunk, which her competition did not do.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Here we go again
 

Then what's the debate?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Here we go again
 

Well from my standpoint, there really is no debate. She won the contest fair and square. It is not her fault that the boys were too stupid to complete a simple dunk to win the contest.

I guess this situation has been turned into "socialogical" debate one what it means. And the media has played this up as a "victory" for women on some level. I think that is why the article from ESPN was written.

Peace

Re: Re: Here we go again
 

I agree. And if the author had stuck to this line of reasoning, I'd have agreed (yawned, but agreed). But he most of the article talking about how women shouldn't be trying to dunk and how the dunk is ruining basketball and how women shouldn't try to be like men and yadda, yadda, frikin' yadda. Then again, he's gotta make a living somehow. :rolleyes:

As a coach of girls ball, one of the fundamental problems with girls is they do not try to play the same game the boys can play. We were discussing this issue at a coahc's meeting for the spring. One of our coaches is a former player for the NY Liberty, and she said she is upset to go on the court with a bunch of HS girls and none of them can do a finger roll.

My freshman girls AAU team scrimmaged an 8-9th grade boys AAU team yesterday. They had a 5'10" white guy who was slamming before the scrimmage (white men CAN dunk :) ), and several taller kids who could slam. My 5'10" player doesn't even think about dunking, which really means she won't play the game in the air like the boys. The boys executed a lot of plays that my girls have never tried. some of it is BS and causes their coach to go ballistic, but some of it is very useful for creating shots against tough defense.

So I think it is a big deal that a girl dunks and gets publicity, because it may lead to girls re-thinking how they approach the game. But I also think it is a bit overdone. If it leads to a lot of jumping and dunking, I think it will improve the girls game. But we have had the isolated female dunker for about 15-20 years now, and it is always one woman in college at a time, now one HS player - you get my point. When it is half of the HS all-Americans, when it is half of the UCONN or Tenn starting line-up (or Baylor even, Judge!), then the game will start to change. Until then, it remains a curiosity, but not a game changing act.

Are you saying that you have a girl who is a high school freshman, who is 5'10", and who is capable of dunking in a game, but does not do it becuase she never thought of it. Unless you have some sort of super awesome player here, I woould assume the reason she is not dunking is not because she never thought about it. My guess would be because she can not do it. I know many a 5'10", even 6'3" men who can not dunk.

Clearly she cannot do it. But she doesn't do the things that boys who dream of dunking do, like see how high she can sky, go after the rim, etc. We did that as boys all along, and at 5'7" I was proud to be able to touch rim in HS. Girls don't do those kind of things, but I think they would if they saw other girls dunking - and the number of dunkers would rise, jumping would improve, etc.

Coach, you make a good point. I was watching the replay of the McD's dunk contest this morning with my 4 year old daughter. When she was watching one of the boys go up and dunk, she turns to me and says, "Daddy, he can fly." I laughed and agreed with her. Then she asked, "Daddy, what does he use to fly like that?"
When I told her he can just jump really high, she then started showing me how high she can jump. If we can just encourage girls to work on their verticle leap without sacrificing the things they do better. It was noted on the show that the girls had done better than the boys in the 3 pt contest. They should make that contest intra-gender.

Also, what about training/conditioning techniques and tools? I don't know much about girls HS teams, but as for boys, many coaches use ankle weights, running up and down stairs, etc to improve jumping ability. I know my HS coach at Bishop Molloy in NY has done it for 40 years.

There's not much you can do as a coach, during the season, to improve jumping ability. That work has to, for the most part, be done in the off season. Of course, mine is a perspective developed without year-round basketball season (I played baseball, too.) :)

Go, CJ!

Unfortunately, she got Dextered by having to do two rounds back-to-back. Shoulda won the damn thing.

I understand that Parker made her dunks and the guys missed theirs. I understand that is why she won. I heard from somewhere that she was using a 28.5 inch ball. When you do a windmill or some other type of fancy dunk, and the ball hits the back of the rim, there is a reason why it hit there. It is because you could not hold on to the ball long enough. When you dunk a basketball, you jump with your hand under the ball. But when it comes time to throw it through the rim, you must flip your hand so it is on top of the ball. Now if your hand can not hold the ball, that is how it hits the back of the rim. Hold you hand so the palm is facing up, and pretend there is a ball in your hand. Now you are at the rim, you must flip your hand over in order to throw it down. Flip your hand palm down. Now if you were not able to palm the ball when you flipped your hand, where would the ball have gone? It would have hit the back of the rim. Exactly where many of the men's dunks hit. I don't have a problem with men cometing when women, but they should be on a level playing field.

So Mark Dexter wants to see the 3 point contest with men and women. Ok well that sounds fine. Ohh hold on. Sudden rule change for next year. Women are moving their three point line in to 18 feet. Ok well that is fine. Guys can shoot from 19'9" and women from 18'. I mean that is what they do in their games, so why should it be any different in this competition?

In order for it to be fair everything must be the same for everyone. The isn't the PGA and Casey Martin. People should not have things easier than their opponents.

This isn't even basketball - it is a show contest. To insist on some integrity in the rules on a slam dunk competition is ridiculous. You are right - this isn't the PGA (which tried to prevent Martin from using a cart). The PGA insists on a very rigid set of rules. Slam dunk competitions' only rule is entertain the crowd.

By the way, where did you hear that the 3 point line is moving in- I hadn't heard this and can't fathom why it would.

Thanks, Coach, that was my point in the other thread as well. There's just nothing to get worked up about here.

I should have pointed out that I am still upset about the X-Games a couple of years ago where they had the best trick competition. The competition had a time limit, but everybody kept sceaming for Tony Hawk to do a 900. He didn't get it done in the time limit, but they kept letting him try it til he did it. That was so wrong. The PGA would never have done that either.

I just get so frustrated with the lack of structure in these trick contests. I think we need an official rules interpreter to get involved and straighten this stuff out.

Coach, if the practitioners of a sport don't want that kind of structure, they shouldn't have it. In my eyes, it will diminish the quality of their sport, and I think that's the case for most mainstream sports fans. However, for 20 somethings (my age group for another few weeks) who really can't handle authority (not my peer group), strict rules would be an awful subtraction from the appeal. It puts this stuff in the same category as pro-wrestling.

Adam

OOPs - forgot the smilies
 

Don't take that last post as serious - these contests have everything they want and need.

I did not hear that it was being moved. It was just a hypothetical situation.

Well this wasn't a hypothetical dunk contest. And they played it how they wanted to play it. And they scored it how they wanted to score it.And if they want to have a 3 point contest where men shoot from 50 feet and women from 40, they'll do it, and people will pay to see it and athletes will compete. Don't like it, don't watch it. It's not sports, it's entertainment.

By the way, the year that Spud Webb won the NBA slam dunk competition, he did so in part because he was 5'7" and people were amazed he could dunk. I don't remember who lost, but maybe they should all file a formal protest. You shouldn't qualify for bonus points just because people are amazed that you can dunk. We need a new rule I guess ;)

I don't really want to stir up this pot again, but I was reading some "back issues" of The Sports Guy on ESPN's Page 2. Here's his thoughts. Kind of condescending, but I thought it was funny enough to share:

That's not condescending, it's sour grapes.

You think so? I don't get that vibe. Maybe I'm transferring my own feelings onto the article, but I think it sounds more like "who really cares?"

rainmaker,

You are unbelievably biased. Nobody is jealous over a couple of the most basic dunks that have ever been done. If Candace Parker is such a spectacular dunker than I'm sure she'll be playing in the NBA(no W)in a few years like some of the guys she beat will, because she's that good. Do you now see how biased and wrong your point of view is on this issue.

muresan
Where does rainmaker ever suggest that Parker is a superior player, or even dunker, when compared to the boys HS all stars? that is the only argument you make here - she is wrong because the boys will be better ballplayers. I'm pretty sure she wouldn't argue that Parker will be in the NBA or beat any of the boys all-stars in one-on-one.

Rainmaker has said that comments like you made in another thread, such as girls shouldn't do "boys" sports, have no basis. I agree with her, as do many others. She has said that whining about a dunk contest when a girl wins is sour grapes. I also agree - the dunk contest is without any standards for judging. The judges in this contest decided that a girl making three straight unspectacular dunks was superior to a boy making and missing some spectacular dunks. The crowd was entertained, which is the main purpose of a dunk contest, not to see who will be the superior NBA player. Whining about the result, like you continue to do, makes rainmakers case more solid. It's actually kind of funny that you can't understand this.

I have a great Candance Parker story.
 

As I have said, I live about less than 2 miles from Naperville. I live about 5 miles from the high school she attended. My Official's Association Banquet was Friday Night and her coach was a speaker at the banquet. Our association always invites Chicago area State Champions Coaches to our Banquet, just to get their perspective on their accomplishment and usually they make commments about officiating and the job that we do, which is very positive of course.

He told this story about something that happen at the McDonald's All-American Dunk Contest. He said that Barry Sanders was trying to get her autograph and some dope (my words not his) stopped Barry, not knowing who he was and said, "Ms Parker has to go." So someone from McDonald's did not realize that one of the histories most successful NFL players was trying to get Candance's autograph.

But from all accounts, Candance is very down to earth. She does not seek attention or publicity. In that same Association, we have an official whose daughter has known Candance from when they were little. His daughter is also a D1 player going to the University of Iowa, but lives in a adjacent community to Naperville. The two girls have played on the same AAU team for years and are very close. I have been hearing stories from about Candance from this parent for years. And it appears that this child is every bit the good and respectful young adult.

So we can talk about how great a player she is or is going to be, I just wish the best for here because he has been raised the right way.

ONE MORE STORY!!!

I almost forgot what her coach told this story.

Candance has officiated some in her lifetime. Not sure what level this was, but something during the summer or spring. Candance calls a foul (she was doing some boy's game) and one of the players did not like the call she made. Then this player said to her, "you should stick to playing." Just shows not matter what we have done, we still get the same respect. :D

Peace