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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 02:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by cmathews
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
I just want to point out that dropping the shoulder alone is not enough. There must be legal position by the defender. I get "Ref's, he's dropping his shoulder!" I reply, "Yeah, and...?"
yep I agree too. That is why there are a lot of no calls from me on this one...
And I have had a few intentional fouls over the years when the shoulder goes down and I feel that A1 is doing so to clear out B1.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 02:45pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by RecRef
And I have had a few intentional fouls over the years when the shoulder goes down and I feel that A1 is doing so to clear out B1.
Oh, my !
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 03:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
I just want to point out that dropping the shoulder alone is not enough. There must be legal position by the defender. I get "Ref's, he's dropping his shoulder!" I reply, "Yeah, and...?"


Good point, and that's what makes this a tough, have-to-see-it call. The defender can have a "legal position", without also having a "legal guarding position" at the same time. Similarly, that "legal position" can change. If the dribbler gets their head and shoulder by a defender running beside them, the onus now shifts to the defender as he has lost his "legal position". If the defender now tries to attain a LGP or regain a legal position in this case, but the contact occurs before that happens, you would have a block even though you might have a "lowered shoulder" and contact on the torso.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 04:01pm
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The 3 things I look for to qualify a PC foul.

1. Defensive player has established initial LGP
2. Contact to torso initiated by offensive player
3. Contact is sufficient to cause defensive player to move their feet (if stationary), or takes them out of their movement path (if moving).

To negate defensive players established LGP, offensive player must get head and shoulders past defensive players torso.

While a lowered shoulder is usually a dead giveaway, I'll also call a PC if the offensive player pushes off the defender with the non-dribbling hand.

FWIW, when it comes to block/charge, I think that far too often the offensive player is given the benefit of the doubt and as officials we need to work harder to call it correctly.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 04:12pm
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Question One step further

All are very good points and I tend to agree. Taking it one step further though. What if (and this seems to happen more often than not) B1 who has established legal guarding position and is standing ready to take the charge at the last second begins to lean backwards or what I like to say "bail out" which may cause the offensive player to fall or other players on the court to fall because B1 bailed out.

I had this happen to me so many times this year. Most of the time I had nothing. I asked some of the officials at the state tournament what they thought and the majority of them said you either have nothing or if it is early enough, go ahead and call the block. That way you do not have bodies all over the floor. I am not sure what to think. I agree with giving the block in an effort to mabye put a halt to the flopping. Any other ideas or help? I would say that this is the worst part of my game. If I can make this improvement then I would feel more comfortable out there when these situations happen.
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 04:13pm
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I just like giving credit to GOOD defense, not coping out when the call is 'tough'. Seems too many times the defense gets punished for doing what they are supposed to be doing.
Main question I have to ask, every time...who-done-it?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 04:18pm
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Re: One step further

Quote:
Originally posted by FHSUref
All are very good points and I tend to agree. Taking it one step further though. What if (and this seems to happen more often than not) B1 who has established legal guarding position and is standing ready to take the charge at the last second begins to lean backwards or what I like to say "bail out" which may cause the offensive player to fall or other players on the court to fall because B1 bailed out.

I had this happen to me so many times this year. Most of the time I had nothing. I asked some of the officials at the state tournament what they thought and the majority of them said you either have nothing or if it is early enough, go ahead and call the block. That way you do not have bodies all over the floor. I am not sure what to think. I agree with giving the block in an effort to mabye put a halt to the flopping. Any other ideas or help? I would say that this is the worst part of my game. If I can make this improvement then I would feel more comfortable out there when these situations happen.
What rule says the defender can't lean back to absorb the contact?

BTW, I have found the best way to stop flopping when it's a problem is to tell the kid to stop flopping. I see no reason to call a foul for no good reason.
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 04:41pm
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Block/Charge #2

What would you call here....B1 has established(and has been established for quite sometime, long enough to build a house with a garage attached) legal guarding position in the lane.

A1 drives to the bucket, and B1 square in the right side of the body. Whistle blows....Referee calls a block. B1 asks why, and referee says "because he hit in the leg."

I was not at this game, so I did not see this play. However, if this play happened as it was told to me, then in my judgement it is a PC/Charge foul, even though the contact was not in the torso area.

My two keys is "legal guarding position" and advantage/disadvantage. I have kind of went away from the right square in the torso line of thinking.

What would you call on this play?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 04:41pm
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Re: Re: One step further

Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
What rule says the defender can't lean back to absorb the contact?

BTW, I have found the best way to stop flopping when it's a problem is to tell the kid to stop flopping. I see no reason to call a foul for no good reason.
And when the kid flops the next time down the floor or later in the quarter how do you handle that? Tell him again not to flop?

Ok, I will phrase it better. The kid bails out and there is no contact. The kid then falls on the floor and because he is laying on the floor, A1 trips over him and loses the ball or something like that. It is a situation that occurs more often than you would like to think.

By rule it is a T on the flopper. Maybe the National Federation should make that a point of emphasis next year and then we go out and hammer the heck outta them the first two weeks of the season. Maybe that will learn 'em.
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 05:00pm
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Re: Re: Re: One step further

Quote:
Originally posted by FHSUref
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
What rule says the defender can't lean back to absorb the contact?

BTW, I have found the best way to stop flopping when it's a problem is to tell the kid to stop flopping. I see no reason to call a foul for no good reason.
And when the kid flops the next time down the floor or later in the quarter how do you handle that? Tell him again not to flop?

Ok, I will phrase it better. The kid bails out and there is no contact. The kid then falls on the floor and because he is laying on the floor, A1 trips over him and loses the ball or something like that. It is a situation that occurs more often than you would like to think.

By rule it is a T on the flopper. Maybe the National Federation should make that a point of emphasis next year and then we go out and hammer the heck outta them the first two weeks of the season. Maybe that will learn 'em.
By rule it is a T on the flopper, yes, but by practice many officials will simply call a block on the kid flopping.

--Rich
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 05:22pm
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Re: Re: Re: One step further

Quote:
Originally posted by FHSUref
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
What rule says the defender can't lean back to absorb the contact?

BTW, I have found the best way to stop flopping when it's a problem is to tell the kid to stop flopping. I see no reason to call a foul for no good reason.
And when the kid flops the next time down the floor or later in the quarter how do you handle that? Tell him again not to flop?

Ok, I will phrase it better. The kid bails out and there is no contact. The kid then falls on the floor and because he is laying on the floor, A1 trips over him and loses the ball or something like that. It is a situation that occurs more often than you would like to think.

By rule it is a T on the flopper. Maybe the National Federation should make that a point of emphasis next year and then we go out and hammer the heck outta them the first two weeks of the season. Maybe that will learn 'em.
If there's no contact then there's no reason for any whistle. If B1's on the floor & he does trip A1 guess what? We got a foul on B1 due to illegal contact. Simple.

If the kid continues to fall without contact he's most likely going to want to know why I didn't have a whistle. And I'll remind him he is getting nothing for a flop. If he's smart he'll stop flopping, if not it's up to his coach to remind him that he can't play effectively while lying on his @ss in the paint. BTW, this goes for shooters who like to flop as well.

I don't think I've ever had to tell a kid more than twice to not flop.
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 05:38pm
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Re: Re: Re: Re: One step further

Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


By rule it is a T on the flopper, yes, but by practice many officials will simply call a block on the kid flopping.

--Rich
[/QUOTE]

This is one thing I have never understood. I am young and maybe that is the problem. If it is in the rule book as a T(letter of the rule) Then why is it called a block (spirit of the rule)by practice? I am guilty of it too just a question.

I really struggled with that during the post-season. At the Sub-state I worked and even the state tournament, I got the impression that there is an unwritten rule not to T a kid or a coach (unless a fight breaks out or some unforseen uncident like that). I know that is off the subject but it just seems like there is so many situations like these out there. If I call the T on a flopper, then I would be scrutinized. I felt the same thing during post season when I let a coach cross the line and didn't T him. It is probably just me but that is the impression I have gotten from several more knowledgable, game tested, older, etc... officials.
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 06:16pm
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One step further

Quote:
Originally posted by FHSUref
Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


By rule it is a T on the flopper, yes, but by practice many officials will simply call a block on the kid flopping.

--Rich


This is one thing I have never understood. I am young and maybe that is the problem. If it is in the rule book as a T(letter of the rule) Then why is it called a block (spirit of the rule)by practice? I am guilty of it too just a question.

I really struggled with that during the post-season. At the Sub-state I worked and even the state tournament, I got the impression that there is an unwritten rule not to T a kid or a coach (unless a fight breaks out or some unforseen uncident like that). I know that is off the subject but it just seems like there is so many situations like these out there. If I call the T on a flopper, then I would be scrutinized. I felt the same thing during post season when I let a coach cross the line and didn't T him. It is probably just me but that is the impression I have gotten from several more knowledgable, game tested, older, etc... officials.
[/QUOTE]

In fact, it is a difficult call.

First you have to decide that the kid is really flopping and not simply bracing for contact that never really comes.

The truth is, I like Dan's response the best (no call -- and if necessary a foul on the defense if the flop causes subsequent contact).

I think things are changing at the top levels of the game (college/varsity HS). Watching Pittsburgh/Wisconsin this Sunday there were three player control fouls in a row called.

Most of my bang-bang block/charge calls are called charges -- correctly, I feel, because establishing and maintaining LGP is not as hard as some of the coaches, fans, and announcers seem to think.

--Rich
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 06:42pm
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Re: Re: Re: One step further

Quote:
Originally posted by FHSUref

By rule it is a T on the flopper. Maybe the National Federation should make that a point of emphasis next year and then we go out and hammer the heck outta them the first two weeks of the season. Maybe that will learn 'em.
Uh-huh.

Anyone want to take bets on whether we'll see more T's for this or more T's from when swinging the elbows was a technical?
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Old Tue Mar 23, 2004, 07:08pm
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One step further

Quote:
Originally posted by FHSUref
Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


By rule it is a T on the flopper, yes, but by practice many officials will simply call a block on the kid flopping.

--Rich


This is one thing I have never understood. I am young and maybe that is the problem. If it is in the rule book as a T(letter of the rule) Then why is it called a block (spirit of the rule)by practice? I am guilty of it too just a question.

[/QUOTE]What makes this a difficult call imo is that there are several different calls that can be made on almost the same play, depending on an official's judgement.
-1) If you think that a player is "flopping" on you, you can T him up for committing an unsporting act by faking a foul. What I look for on this one is the big beller- "aaaaaargh- by the defender, with little or no contact accompanying that beller. I'll always warn on this one because he's making me look bad.
-2) You also have to remember that the defender, after attaining LGP, can now protect themself from the contact. They can move, duck, get the arms in front to brace themselves, and even turn around and take the contact from behind- and still be legal. Contact would be charged to the offensive player. See rule 4-34-3.
-3) If the defender falls down without contact in front of the dribbler, it could also end up as a no-call. A defender falling to the floor is legally entitled to that spot. Contact now by the dribbler with the defender on the floor is ruled as inadvertant, unless the defensive player on the floor tries to trip or block the dribbler. See case book play 10.6.1SitE. This is an NFHS interpretation only, and is not applicable to NCAA rules. It's a foul under NCAA rules.
-4) Or, as discussed before, you can have a PC foul on the dribbler under certain circumstances.

Don't worry. With experience, you'll be able to differentiate between the different scenarios, and make the appropriate call.
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