I know we have not yet played a game in the NCAA tournament as of yet, but would anyone like to start venturing guesses on who will work the Final Four this year?

Of the games that I saw over the weekend, and last week, here is who I think will work the Final Four this year.

Karl Hess, Ted Valentine, Jim Burr, Scott Thornley, Ted Hillary, Mike Kitts, Ed Hightower, John Cloughtery, and Dave Libbey, with Dick Cartmell or Tony Greene being the alternate official.


Put the first nine names in any order, and it would be good crews all the way around.

Mr. Wellmer would be a good bet.

I just hope the Big 12 officials who worked the UT-Kansas game and the UT-OSU game don't make it. (I think it was two different crews but am not sure.) I did not think that they did a good job. Especially the UT-Kansas crew, they were bad. I was only able to listen to the OSU-UT game because it was on ESPN so I can't comment on most of the calls. I did think that Big 12 tournament officials should know that the ball is not after the shot clock buzzer sound as long as there is no violation.

[Edited by gostars on Mar 15th, 2004 at 06:27 PM]

I don't think Mr. Wellmer will be working the final four. You also forgot about Donnee Gray and Boudreu (spelling?). Unless you know something I don't know.

Donnee Gray & maybe Greenwood will be in the mix.

Reggie Greenwood

I did forget about Greenwood, Gray, and Beaudruex being in the mix as well. I do have to disagree with a previous response, as I can count it a sure bet that one of the officials from the OSU-UT game will end up in the Final Four again this year.

I have already mentioned his name in my original post.

I'll take an outside shot and say Dave Hall will be there. I would like to Reggie Greenwood make it.

Yes to Clougherty as I think he's hanging it up this season. No, No, No to Valentine. All of the others would be good choices.

Keep in mind...
 

That many times it depends on how many times these officials have the final 4 teams during the year. Welmer has been set to go for a few years but he officiates all the big games...and has had the teams that make it to the final four too much!

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Mar 16th, 2004 at 02:41 PM]

What's wrong with Valentine?

Others to consider
 

Dave Hall and Steve Welmer. You never know, some "rookies" might bust on the scene. I got my first State Tournament this year and got a State Championship game.

He's a little too much of a showman to me. I certainly don't think I'm alone in this belief...

I hope Wellmer gets in this year. Has he ever gone? I don't think so.

Hillary, Hightower and Burr would be great choices.

Sanzere? His attitude gets on my nerves, but he is a good official and may get in.

One point of advice. Never base your opinion of officials off of a radio announcer's opinion. You don't know nearly enough about the game to make that comment. Okay, a 2nd point, what was it about the Kansas-UT crew that was "bad?" Pointer, you'd best have some concrete example of missed rules or something to that effect.
Kansas fan, perhaps?

[/B] My criticism of the UT-OSU crew was the shot clock violation mix-up. In addition, no one was watching the players after a foul was called and one of the OSU players was pushed into the bench. The Texas announcers thought that it was intentional. I saw the Kansas-UT game and they missed many calls. Most of them hurt Texas. For example, the offensive player would push the defender with an elbow and the defender would be called for a block.

Gostars,

Do you officiate?

I say that because I find your comment that "I saw the Kansas-UT game and they missed many calls. Most of them hurt Texas." to be very close to what a fan would say.

Remember that you always have a different look on the floor than from the TV cameras.

- Brad

final 4 officials
 

I would like to see David Hall and Tim Higgins in there. Hightower?? Oh please.....

If Dook makes it, I want Ray Natili!

Is there a rule about the guys who work the national title game one year get rotated out the following year? For instance, would Boudreaux, Greene, and Cartmell not be eligible for the final this year?

I do not (though I would love to). The call that I am complaining there was an official right there. In one case, the camera was right behind the official so that you could see everything he could. I know that officials can't see everything but in several cases the could not help but see and made the wrong call. During a timeout, they checked a reply to se if a FG was the two or three (they had given him a two) the replay showed that he did not have a foot on the line and they still did not change it.

All I know is.... I am not eligible this year! :D

Gee, I never would have guessed.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cmmsdm/...s/rolleyes.gif

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cmmsdm/...s/rolleyes.gif

Maybe the video was inconclusive. If so, how can they change the call?

All in all, I'd say http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cmmsdm/...s/rolleyes.gif

[Edited by canuckrefguy on Mar 17th, 2004 at 01:07 AM]

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Originally posted by TriggerMN
If Dook makes it, I want Ray Natili!

Is there a rule about the guys who work the national title game one year get rotated out the following year? For instance, would Boudreaux, Greene, and Cartmell not be eligible for the final this year?
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Speaking of Dick Cartmell...

Another thread asked who was the most famous people we had officiated for.
Many of you had some very famous names...I've had a couple future D1 players, not to famous, but has anyone had a D1 official's kid playing in a game with the D1 official there watching?
I officiated 3 games this year for a Richland, WA High School boys varsity team. (They went to State this year..."two and out")
Cartmell's two sons play for this team, the Richland "Bombers".
Dick goes to as many games as he can, with his college schedule and all, and it is interesting to call a game knowing a very good D1 official is watching with a critical eye.
Dick Cartmell started officiating in our local H.S. association and he gives a lecture every year for us...very knowledgeable and insightful individual.

A funny story about Mr. Cartmell:
Last fall a bunch of us guys went to an annual party a local Catholic school puts on. It's great fun, especially the beer garden in the gymnasium. Well, Dick Cartmell was helping serve in the beer garden. A fellow official and I noticed that Dick had on a Final Four T-shirt from 2003, where he was an official. I wasn't sure he would recognize me amongst all the people...so as Dick was handing me my refreshment I asked him jokingly, in front of some local Coaches and officials that were there, "Nice shirt, have you ever been to a final four game".
He casually responded, "ah yeah, a couple times".
We all got a pretty good laugh out of it, especially the way he took it so ho hum.
I did feel pretty good this year after a Richland H.S. game. As I was walking out, Dick said "Nice game Dan, good job"...of course Richland had won the game.
Anyway, that's my brush with fame. :)

I have to agree with snagwells recent response. We want to be carefull about how we say a particular crew was bad without presenting any evidence to back up our opinion.

Quick example, about 6 or 7 years ago I was working a huge city baseball tournament in Battle Creek, Michigan and my partner(young umpire) was putting down veteran MLB umpire Tim Welke about a fair/foul call he had made in a recent game.

Well, unaware of his surroundings, this particular umpire did not realize that veteran MLB umpire Mike Reilly who is from Battle Creek was home on vacation, and could hear him putting down Welke.

Let's just that this particular umpire who was so vocal about Welke shut his mouth real quick when Reilly got involved in the conversation.

I normally say until I have that kind of officiating resume like those of Valentine, Sanzere, Hightower, Welmer, etec....I do not one inch of room to put those guys down.

I give a bit more credence to this sort of thing coming from a D-I official than a coach, parent or player . . .

I don't think this was the crew from the national title game.

Valentine might be a showman but I would rather see a showman than see an official jumping around, leaning a peeking on every play. That just doesn't work for me. I think Valentine is a great official with a unique style. He just likes to make around-the-back, between-the-legs calls :D

My mistake. Cartmell and Boudreaux did the national title game last year, but the third official was Reggie Cofer, not Tony Greene. I just checked the box score. Carry on.

Where did you find the box score? I thought for sure Donnee Gray did the championship game.

I thought the Texas-Kansas crew did not do a good job. That is just my opinion and some people who did not watch the game have a problem with that. I did reference several calls in my second post that I did not think were right. You would have to see them to know either way. There were more then the ones I mentioned but I can't remember them now. My complaint about the OSU-UT crew was poor game management and blowing the ball after the shot clock expired when there was no violation. In a conference championship game and the NCAA tournament, the officials should now that everyone is very charged up and someone needs to watch the players during a ball. It doesn't (or shouldn't) take the officials to report a foul to the table.

There is a reason that they're working these games and you're not. Until you're in that situation you shouldn't be reaming the people that were. Learn from what they do, so maybe someday you'll be doing games at that level. I know I'd love to work a final four game. I think that would be the highlite of my life.

Donnee Gray did the final 4 last year but not the championship game.