My family actually enjoyed an NBA game on TV last night, since the Blazers are playing real basketball these days, and also since they beat Sacramento.

But I noticed two things I thought were interesting in reffing terms. 1) There was one time when the lead was on camera, there was a skip pass from low post to low 3-point line area, and the lead literally sprinted across the lane to rotate. He didn't power-walk, he would have beat Michael Johnson. I thought running on rotation was verboten. 2) Ball in a 7th grade girls' type pigpile, closest ref wants to come in with a violation call, and he cups both hands around his mouth and whistle, directing his tweet and his voice towrad the players on the floor. I thought that was kind of a good idea. Is this acceptable? Have others seen this?

Must be New!
 

Juulie,

Regarding the L running, I watch a lot of NBA and noticed just about all of them do that this year. I've also noticed a lot of mistakes when the lead sprints over especially when there is a quick transition the other way. Most of the time they catch it quickly and recover.

I really admire those guys and gal!

Her name escapes me, but the African American Female is really good! Check her out!

Side note: I would LOVE to hear a pre-game when the Lakers are playing. I'd like to know the rules with Shaq.

I think her name is Virginia Palmer, but i'm not too sure on that.

Didn't there used to be 2 females, but 1 got fired or something like that? I remeber hearing something about it when i started officiating.

Re: Must be New!
 

Violet Palmer,she is cool.Tells a great story and is very frank about her trip to the top.

NBA mechanics are NOTHING like college and HS mechanics, getting the best angle to see a play is VERY IMPORTANT (hence why they started using flex rotation a few years ago) and in the lead runs over to get a better angle at a play and no one else adjusts he just runs back to his side. You'll also see new trails comeing down the court in a 2 man trail type line. Thier mechanics manual emphasises postion and getting the best angle. An NBA evaluator told me. "to get the play right you have to see the whole play at the correct angle." Watching the NBA officials wont do much for your mechanics but it'll do a whole lot to work on your court presence and presentation.

FYI: The rules for Shaq are the same for everyone else.

I wasn't watching to try to learn anything about mechanics. I just happened to notice.


Anyone have any comments about the yelling into the pigpile thing?

Um, nothing? College officials use the "flex" rotation, just like the NBA. College officials send the calling official table-side for all free throws, just like the NBA. NCAAW officials report with the "walk and talk" mechanic, just like the NBA; and also use the fist punch to indicate an "offensive" foul. Many of the signals are the same between the two sets of mechanics. There are obviously a lot of differences, but it's a stretch to say that they're "nothing" alike.

And it's not important in HS and college? :confused:

The fact is, Juulie, the NBA wants rotations much more quickly than the NCAA calls for them. The NCAA says you rotate when the ball settles below the FT line extended. The NBA says you rotate almost as soon as the ball crosses the middle of the court. They want two officials on the ball-side if at all possible.

So in your situation, the Lead recognized that he needed a rotation. Additionally, once he makes that rotation, he was going to be responsible for the 3-point shot from the corner. That's part of the Lead's primary in NBA coverage. So he needed to rotate and get very wide to officiate a deep 3-point shot as quickly as possible. So maybe he felt that he couldn't get there unless he ran.

In general, I think you make a valid observation. Running across the lane is usually not approved. However, it's not "verboten". As we always say, you do what you need to do in order to call the play. In this play, maybe the official just felt that's what he had to do to get the position he needed.

As for cupping the hands, I've seen it but never done it. I'm short enough that when I blow the whistle, I'm right around the level of the players on the floor anyway :) Seriously, I get into the pigpile in a pretty big hurry, so I don't feel it's necessary to "direct" the whistle at the pile. I'm already there.

While the written rules are no different when Shaq's on the court, I think a lot of NBA officials will tell you that it's very difficult to apply them in a consistent manner when he's playing. Advantage/disadvantage becomes very difficult. Shaq's so big that he can (and does) absorb a LOT of contact without being disadvantaged. So do you let him get beat up just b/c he's not disadvantaged? Or do you call a couple of "ticky-tack" fouls to try and keep guys from being draped all over him for the whole game? Do you call an offensive foul when he backs down his defender, even tho the contact is relatively light? He's so big, he can just move them, without really pushing very hard. So is that a foul? The rules are there, but it's very hard to apply them fairly to both sides.

Sometimes even when they're standing up too.

http://www.sodamnfunny.com/Picture/Sport/basketball.jpg

Dee Kantner. I think she lasted 4 seasons.

I think she lasted 1 or 2 in developmental and only one at the NBA level. She just didn't have the "presence" that Violet has on the court.

Thanks!
 

Chuck,



Regarding Shaq, you explained it well. Thanks!

Her name is Violet Palmer and she is really good.

In college and high school we shouldn't run across the lane. Period. The NBA does what is best for their game at their level. They do officiate angles the best. When is the last time you saw a NBA game with off-ball calls? That is why they can run across the lane. It shouldn't be done in high school and college because we should officiate where we are at the moment meaning officiate the paint as you walk across instead of looking across to where you will end up. Some would say that the women's game doesn't have a history of tough post play and that is the reason the areas of coverage are the same as the NBA. Some will say they just want to be like the NBA. Time will tell if it will remain the same.

The game must be called different for Shaq or he would shoot 40 free throws a game.

No Jules, Jug is correct. Dee was in the bleague several years before she was fired. 4 sounds about right.

Tommy, I'm just wondering what basis you have for this comment. Aren't there always exceptions? You say. . .

But this is also true in the NBA philosophy. The rotating Lead continues to officiate his/her primary until s/he is in position and ready to "accept" the play on the new ballside. That's why the slot is always the last official to rotate to the new position. The slot continues to officiate his/her entire half of the court until the new Lead has completed the rotation.

Obviously the Lead knows where the ball is; s/he has to know in order to rotate properly. But that doesn't mean that the Lead is officiating the ball there during the rotation.

So all that is to say. . . the pro and non-pro philosophies are very similar regarding Lead responsibilities during rotations. So why say that the non-pro official shouldn't run "period". I agree (and I said earlier) that it's not the norm and usually not necessary. But if the official feels it is necessary, is there really any reason to tell him/her not to?

I don't understand this at all. Do you mean when is the last time you saw an NBA official make a call out of his/her primary? I agree that's very rare, and it's a good thing. But I don't understand what it has to do with running across the lane.

NCAA also would prefer to have fewer out-of-primary calls, I think. But the pro philosophy really emphasizes it. In my very, extremely, extraordinarily short pro career, my supervisor told me, "I would rather chew his a$$ for missing a call in his primary than chew yours for making the right call out of your primary."

Take it for what it's worth.

Chuck - replace slot with C, and isn't that how all 3-person rotations are supposed to work? :confused:

I've watched a few NCAAW games this season, and it amazed me how much the officials ping-pong back and forth, rotating hither and yon. And it seemed that on quite a few occasions that they would get caught mid-rotation.

I know that the NCAAW feel the need to mirror the NBA mechanics in every way, but I sincerely wonder how rotating so often makes the game a better officiated one.

--Rich

Yes, Mark, that's exactly my point. The pro and non-pro philosophies are very similar on this. So my question to Tommy was: since the philosophies are so similar, why does he say that it's ok for the pros to run but not the non-pros.

The theory, I think, is that it's always better to have two officials ballside. Two sets of eyes on a drive are better than one set of eyes. So however often you have to rotate to keep two officials ballside is how often you go.

Maybe we should just go to 4-whistle crews. Two officials on each side of the basket -- no rotations at all. :)

But then you lose C - there's something nice about just having to travel the distance between the lane lines on a fast break. :D

Chuck, I made my comments about running and off-ball because of off-ball calls not about calling out of your primary. There just aren't many off-ball calls in the NBA. I don't think off-ball calls would fit into their entertainment philosophy. Also, they are seasoned officials and they do almost everything for a reason that is in black and white. If you see high school and NCAA officials on TV they are running around leaning and peaking just to look busy. Finally, high school officials will run across and look at where they are going. There aren't even many camps that speak about officiating the lane as you are walking across. Heck last year the camp I went to didn't even talk about how you should walk across.
In the NBA I would say 90% of the time they rotate once per 24 second shot clock and that is it. If the ball rotates the slot has it.
I will stand by my beliefs that we should not go into a game with the philosophy that it's alright to call outside of our area. Sure things happen and you might have to reach for a call but when the L, T and C constantly know everything that is going on everyplace on the court something is wrong. Even though some might not put it that way, that is basically what is happening way too often.

I'm not a HS official on TV, but I definitely don't "run around leaning and peeking to look busy." In a varsity game, especially in two-person, there's plenty of real contact to keep track of, without making work for myself.

Also, perhaps we have better training camps here in Oregon, because I've been taught A LOT about when to cross over, and when not to, and what to do on the way nad what to do when I get there. I haven't mastered it yet, but it's available to anyone around here that is interested in moving up.

I wasn't talking about you specifically. I also wasn't talking about when to cross over or what to do once you get there. I was speaking more on how to progress across the lane (speed) and what to look at while you are doing it (where you are, where you are, where you are, now you are across) rather than crossing and immediately looking to where you are going to be once you cross. This is a small thing to some but you are on the west coast so I believe you have been schooled on it properly.
I will probably have to agree with you about the camps. The camps I've been to that have addressed this in depth have been on the west coast. I do know at least one guy from Oregon, I think his name is Dave something, and you probably do get better training than other places. :D
You might not know it but this is my first year on the east coast after moving from the west coast. On the west coast the basketball community overlaps so you probably know somebody that I know. Depending on the camps you've been to our paths might have crossed at the same camp.

Well, then, I still don't see the connection. There are not many off-ball calls in the NBA, therefore NBA officials can run across the lane. How does that follow? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just not following you.

There aren't many off-ball calls in an NCAA game either. I don't have any stats in front of me, but I would think that the ratio of fouls called on the ball to fouls called off the ball would be roughly the same in the NBA and in NCAA. The fact is that there are simply fewer fouls committed off the ball than there are on the ball. It doesn't have anything to do with an "entertainment" philosophy.

But even if the ratio is significantly different between the NBA and NCAA, how does that relate to the ability of officials to run through the lane?

I do. . .


Hmmmm. Some do, but the vast majority do not. Good officials move their feet, not just their heads, to see the play. There are a few, even on TV, who do the "chicken peek", but not many.


I'd love to see the stats you've compiled to support that claim. I have no idea what the percentage of single-rotation possessions is. But I will tell you flat out that if the ball swings, the Lead is rotating. The philosophy in the NBA, as I said before, is to have two officials ball-side whenever possible. It's very rare that they will leave the Slot on the ball-side.

Next time you watch an NBA game, pay attention to the Lead official. Notice how quickly they close down. As soon as the ball goes across the lane line on the Slot's side of the floor, there will be a rotation (unless the Lead feels a shot or drive is imminent, or unless it's the last 24 seconds of the period).

It is alright to call outside of your area, but only in unusual and very specific circumstances. As I mentioned before, I think pro supervisors agree with you. They'd rather miss a borderline call than have somebody reach out of their area to get it right. I think most of us here feel the same way.

How do you know there are trying to "look busy"? I think that is pretty judgemental without anything to back it up. And what do you mean if the ball rotates then the slot has it when we were just talking about the fact that L busts over to the strong side to relieve the slot? And as far as off ball, I see it at least a few times a game at the NBA level. But that's just me.

Think the rotation philosophy is simple.

Want 4 eyes on the potential scoring play.

High School (no shot clock) rotate less cuz not sure were the scoring play will be in the end.

College (35 second clock) rotate a little quicker cuz scoring play will likely happen sooner.. as the shot clock will expire sooner.

NBA (24 second clock) rotate immediately (EVEN RUN).. cuz that scoring play is almost certain to happen on the side that the ball is on after crossing the division line.

4 eyes better than 2.. especially in the NBA.

Chuck, I didn't see your post until now. I will explain what I meant to say. Or what I did say or something :D

If an NBA official runs across the lane they ref as the go across but they are not likely to call a push away from the ball. Look at a game and tell me if this is correct most of the time or not. Also, simply for the sake of seeing the play clearly it isn't good to run across the paint. I know that is a small thing but it could make a difference.

I agree with you there might be as many off-ball calls in the NCAA as the NBA but they differ. In the NCAA the ball could be free-throw line extended outside the arc on the strong side and C will make a call in the paint on his/her side. In the NBA, lead will make a call on defender pushing a post player where the entry pass is imminent. That is off-ball also but you will generally not see a whistle from some action on the other side of the court unless it is a non-basketball play. Once again look and see.

There are some top-level officials who jump around and it doesn't look good to me. I agree the vast majority do not but you said you see them too so I guess you partially agree with this. It is just a whole bunch of body movement that isn't needed to me.

I watched a game just last night before I even read your post. The next time I see a game I will get a piece of paper and write down how many times they rotate during the shot clock and how many times they rotate more than once during a shot clock. If there is an offensive rebound all bets are off. I will not do this for the entire game but I will make sure to do it for long enough to get a good sample. If you get a chance, can you do the same and we can compare notes? It might be interesting.

I agree with your comments 100% about calling outside of your area. What I don't agree with are the officials who think it is alright to make this a normal part of the game on routine calls. We see eye to eye on this one.

I will catch some games and look at my statements again. I'm not above checking myself:D

I dunno - I've seen a couple of the NCAA tourney refs (particularly in the Denver pod) running across the baseline on rotations. Personal style, perhaps? Or has the NCAA come out with a bulletin for its tourney officials?

Mark, I saw the same thing you did yesterday. It happened a lot in one game in particular. I don't even want to mention the game because that could single out three people. One of the officials in this game looked crisp and solid. The other two looked like they were a wig and red nose away from a circus. I watched objectively to see if there was a formula to what they did. Maybe they pr-gamed something different for some reason. I couldn't come up with anything. The two of them were physically all over the court and I mean all over the court. They were peaking, leaning and jumping around. Plays occured above the three point line literally 8-10 feet from the trail and the lead had a whistle! The trail coming all the way below the free throw line for no apparent reason and then getting beat back. The C stepping onto the court about 8 feet, which is fine if the players are on the other side of the court, but isn't if there are players on the C side that have to go around the ref! This is while one of the players had the ball! I know it might not be right for me to criticize since they are there and I'm not but as a reference there are officials that we all know and see all the time that do not do this and call a great game. I just don't see why some guys do this sort of thing. Maybe they are trying to get noticed so they can move on. I noticed them.

I don't remember which game, but there was definately one where the C was too far onto the court. Turnover - he doesn't go to the sideline before running back. C gets down to the new C position, and . . . . SETS A SCREEN FOR THE OFFENSE! One of the defenders ran right into him.

That official stayed glued to the sideline at C for the rest of the game that I saw.

Mark, that made me giggle. We are probably talking about the same game :D