I watched a mid-season tournament game in December. It was awful. The officials are not normally bad. There just an above average varsity crew. This is a big tournament that local officials get invited to.

This game was bad. Not the play, the officiating. Calls were reported incorrectly. Time outs were granted before they should have been (free throws to shoot). Players wearing bracelets. Bad calls. A “T” on the coach, who kept standing. Probably should have been another “T.” Then it goes to overtime. It was just bad game management from top to bottom.

After the game, all the officials that observed the game go to the locker room with the crew (it’s always this way.) They weren’t told that they did a great job. But I was sitting with the others and heard their thoughts about the calls and the game. It wasn’t pretty. But now, suddenly, they are telling them what a good job they did with a difficult game. Pats on the back all around.

I’m too new with these guys to make my reputation based on this. I kept my mouth shut and when back to my family. Another official, says to me later, “Wow, was that sugar coated or what!?”

(Let’s all just tell each other how great we are and we’ll be convinced.)

Originally posted by footlocker
Calls were reported incorrectly.

What does that mean?


Time outs were granted before they should have been (free throws to shoot).

Please elaborate. You can grant a time-out before free throws are shot.


Bad calls. A “T” on the coach, who kept standing.

Why is that bad? Quite likely could have been deserved.

Probably should have been another “T.”

Why? Maybe the officials didn't feel that the coaches standing deserved an ejection. In a close game, I would tend to agree.

Then it goes to overtime.

Sounds like a fun game... one that probably sucked in the fans .... even those who are officials.


It was just bad game management from top to bottom.

By a crew that is "usually good" according to you? Maybe you got sucked in too.


Pats on the back all around.


So the second-guessing officials in the crowd are gutless too? Seems consistent to me.

Z

Zebra- You can sit and try and break down the post by looking at each point to find fault with the premise. Except the foundation for what it is; except the scenario as I set it up. Wasting your time going line by line is futile. I'm not going to get sucked in.

I'm a guest at this tournament. I enjoy good basketball but it is not my place to evaluate these guys. If you are a decent official, you know when and where to keep your mouth shut. (you may not be decent.)

I heard the officials that were there for feedback discuss the game as it was going on. I heard the negatives quite clearly. But when we got in the locker room, (my job to observe, others there for feedback) the feedback was almost all positive, very little negative. Reality is that they could have helped this crew. Instead, it gave them a false idea of the quality. I could only hope they got a tape and can make there own honest assesment.

footlocker,

You posted some very vague criticisms. If you are a decent official (back at ya'), you would know that you <b>can</b> grant a time-out before you shoot a free throw so at least one of your "criticisms" isn't even valid.

If the criticizing officials didn't have the courage to re-state their comments in front of the crew, then they aren't secure enough in their criticism for it to have any value.

Z

Or they are a bunch of back-stabbers who just like trying to find flaws with a crew because they want to feel superior.

footlocker,
I agree.
Without some negative feedback, we are destined for mediocrity.
mick

I wholeheartedly agree Mick. However, there is an art to giving feedback to officials in the locker room after a game (especially a heated one that went down to the wire).

First of all, you need to have their respect as an official yourself or they won't value what you have to say.

Then you need to be able to understand that the bleacher view is different from the floor view so you may want to ask about certain situations rather than assuming that the bleacher view is correct. I also find some positive things to start with (and yes, even the most green of officials do some things well) before I get into the "things to work on."

Finally, you need to have your facts straight. If footlocker had criticized them for allowing a time-out to be called before free throws were shot (which is allowed), he has just lost all credibility he may have had before he opened his pie-hole.

Z

Maybe, they're just considerate enough to not criticize them when they know others are listening and were reserving full commentary for a private discussion.

Of course, they probably shouldn't have been discussing it in the stand within earshot of others but perhaps they thought (incorrectly) that they were speaking quiet enough for others to not hear.

I had a boy's JV game recently where I had to T up a coach in the first half. At halftime one of the varsity guys for the next game comes into the locker room with us and immediately starts questioning my judgement on giving the coach a T (at the time this coach was down by 20 with no hope of it getting any better). After asking him for specifics, he said I didn't explain myself on the call he was upset over (which I did on my way past him immediately after my call), then that I didn't give him enough time to express himself (which I felt I did given the fact that play was live and I couldn't exactly have a discussion with the coach), to which he said, get this, I should have stopped play to talk to the coach at that point instead of putting up my stop sign. I didn't whack the coach until I was running down the other way past him when he made another snide remark. At that point this varsiy guy admits he didn't hear any of what went on between the coach and myself - he just didn't think I should have T'd up the coach. I was pissed. My partner backed me up 100%, but it messed me up for the second half. Luckily it was an easy second half. I know that's my own fault for letting it get to me, but there's a way to discuss something with a fellow official and a way not to. I think this varsity guy needed better communication skills.

Hey Zebra,

If I remember correctly. There was a T given on a coach. A time out was asked for. Before even reporting the T to the table, he hits the whistle and signals the time out. Walks to his partner to discuss the T, reports the T while his partner is getting the away team out of the huddle to shoot the Technical shots.

If memory serves me, this is out of order. The Technical free throws should have been shot before the time out is granted. (much less reporting out of order)

Now, like I said- I'm not going to explain every game scenario I did not like. I don't even remember them all. (I already stated this was mid-season.) I was reading another thread where someone asked about moving up. It occured to me that some people never get the honest feedback needed because either they are hard to bring it to or others are more interested in sugar coating to maintain relationships. So, instead of trying to argue some minute point (because you're right- I did word it incorrectly) except the foundation for what it is.

I am saying that I always appreciate someone helping me get better. Telling me I did great, no problems is crap. Telling me some rhetoric and giving generic feedback does me no good. There are good officials that can watch a game and identify sincere shortcomings. I want that feedback. Then I get better.

'nuff said.

Since when does an official answer to an official who is NOT his partner? Open door, insert foot into V's backside, and push. Unless he's your supervisor or something.

Unless I'm missing something, this is wrong. You don't have to shoot the FT's for the T before you grant the TO request. You can grant a TO request any time that the ball is dead. The only mistake above was to grant the TO before the official reported the T. Proper sequence is (1)report the T (2)Grant the TO (3)shoot the FT's for the T.

The only mistake above was to grant the TO before the official reported the T. [/QUOTE]

I agree with your procedure, JR.
However, there have been times, on my way to report, that I have nodded to an actively waving coach so that he may know his request has been recognized. :cool:
mick

I agree with your procedure, JR.
However, there have been times, on my way to report, that I have nodded to an actively waving coach so that he may know his request has been recognized.
[/QUOTE]Yeah, I've also told the coach, when he asked for a TO, something along the lines of "You got it, Coach, as soon as I finish this".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by footlocker
Hey Zebra,
If I remember correctly. There was a T given on a coach. A time out was asked for. Before even reporting the T to the table, he hits the whistle and signals the time out. Walks to his partner to discuss the T, reports the T while his partner is getting the away team out of the huddle to shoot the Technical shots. If memory serves me, this is out of order. The Technical free throws should have been shot before the time out is granted. (much less reporting out of order)

Not correct. Yes, the official should have reported the T to the table before granting the T.O., but the free throws would be shot after the time-out.

I am saying that I always appreciate someone helping me get better. Telling me I did great, no problems is crap. Telling me some rhetoric and giving generic feedback does me no good. There are good officials that can watch a game and identify sincere shortcomings. I want that feedback. Then I get better.


I'm with you in regards to getting input... I love the feedback. When the JV officials stick around for my V game, I always ask them to find something I need to improve on and have them come in at halftime. However, I have also experienced the "pleasure" of having officials who want to argue or make excuses when you are trying to give them some feedback (even though I always preface it with some good things that they are excelling at). So I don't give feedback anymore unless an official gives me an indication that they want feedback. The officials who are genuinely concerned about improving almost always ask for some input.

Z

I don't think it's a very good idea to ask <b>anybody</b> to critique you at halftime of a game. Right after the game- maybe. Well after the game over a brownpop- definitely. Halftime is for relaxing, going over first half problems, maybe critiquing or beng critiqued by your partners, getting ready for the second half,etc.- but you don't need any other distractions at that time. And neither do your partners. There's a time and a place for input from other parties, and halftime ain't it, imo.

I agree. No "guests" at halftime (although this has happened to me). Actually, even right after a game is not a good time to listen and absorb feedback. The refs may be emotionally and/or physically drained, possibly psyched up or feeling down. A written (or verbal) evaluation a short time later could be more useful. I'm not sold on this "opinion by committee" method where a group of "peers" bombard the locker room to offer feedback. It probably isn't necessary anyway. Any one who has officiated four years or more, and is qualified to ref a varsity game will already KNOW he had a dismal game (or a great game). If he has no clue either way, he probably shouldn't be doing varsity level games.

Women's game Saturday, ...had a partner that needed some guidance. I minute after we entered the half-time room, in comes a Men's ref and two home players, and they stay the distance.
We didn't get it done. :(

I agree with Jurassic and Mick on acknowleging the TO request (not granting it yet, but acknowledging it). It drives me crazy when I am going to report a foul and I am flagged down by a coach wanting a TO. It takes concentration to still remember the number of the foul and the shooter, etc. A nod or an 'I gotcha coach' is the best I can do.

Good Points
 

Footlocker (and all others):

Just a few observations on your original posting.

(This can be construed as the constructive feedback that you indicated you are seeking.)

First, I believe your intent was to call out officials to offer realistic and helpful observations but think the tone in which you chose to present this unique situation is what opened you to criticism. Making judgmental observations, rather than documenting the actions of the officials on the court encouraged a retaliatory response from other officials (as can be observed in hindsight.)

Secondly, I have serious reservations about the whole activity that you have commented on; having a collection of officials in the bleachers “evaluating” the performance of the game officials within earshot of others is at best peculiar, if not downright unethical. I am further perplexed by the “tradition” of giving an assessment, en masse, to the game officials immediately following the game. As indicated in an earlier post, I would reserve my sincere, candid criticism for a much more private setting.

Lastly, I have noticed an increase of “short-fused” and less than productive dialog on a number of threads lately. It is frustratingly sad that a more cooperative and constructive atmosphere isn’t fostered. I believe we all can do better in this area.

My two senses worth. :D

One Whistle-

well put. thanks for adding.

I don't think it's a very good idea to ask <b>anybody</b> to critique you at halftime of a game. Right after the game- maybe. Well after the game over a brownpop- definitely. Halftime is for relaxing, going over first half problems, maybe critiquing or beng critiqued by your partners, getting ready for the second half,etc.- but you don't need any other distractions at that time. And neither do your partners. There's a time and a place for input from other parties, and halftime ain't it, imo. [/QUOTE]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. If an official who is watching the game comes in at halftime, I always welcome them. If they have something that can help us in the second half, that's all the better. I don't consider it a distraction - I consider it one more official's view of how the game is going. We're all better refs from the bleachers than we are on the floor. I like to get input from that vantage point too.

Z

As for halftime, I like it to be myself and my partner only, so we can talk over the first half. However, if my mentor or my partner's mentor is present and decides to join us, they're always welcome. Anyone else will have to wait till after the game.

As far as half time goes, I always welcome other officials. I agree with Zebra here. Another vantage point can be good for the game in the second half. Generally, refs will ask if they can join in at the half or I'll invite.

I'm not easily rattled. I don't think anyone is going to throw me off my game. Usually other officials will let my partner and I chat, then add something.

If it is someone that I wouldn't invite in at halfitme, I don't want to see them after the game either.

DII GLIAC officials are *dressed down* if they interrupt a half-time meeting involving other GLIAC officials.

I don't allow the half-time meeting with my partner(s) to be <i>interrupted.</i> When we are done with our first-half recap and adjustments, I invite input from the other officials who we have welcomed into the locker room with us. Win-win.

Z