HS games. Three years ago I had a partner tell me he was surprised to see me do a 5 sec. count while I was at L. Then last week I had an official tell me in HS the L doesn't do the 5 sec. count. We went back and forth on the subject and it ended when I asked him about both of us watching the ball. He didn't have an answer for that question. Am I missing something?

We are!
 

If you are missing something then I am missing the same thing!

I count the 5 seconds all the time as "L"........Especially when the ball and defender is in my primary ;) of course in Washington state Girls BBall is closely guarded on a held ball anywhere on the court.

I would hope that if the ball is below the freethrow line extended the L is picking that up and the "T" is looking inside the paint or for the next competitive match-up.

me too. I count the 5 at Lead. Bart, anyone ever give you a reason why you wouldn't?

I think he said the L is focus on the contact.

That official might be used to the NCAAM 3-whistle mechanics. In those games, the L never has a visible count. The Trail will take the closely-guarded count.

When I was bouncing back and forth between 2- and 3-whistle mechanics, my biggest problem was remembering to officiate in my primary in 2-whistle. Ball would come down in my corner and my nose would still be in the paint. I recovered in time to avoid embarrassment and it's funny looking back, but still....

I'm only talking about 3-whistle. While I will admit, I don't think I have ever had a 5 sec. violation from the L. I still think its your responsibility for the count. I know in NCAAW, we are responsible as the L.

3 Years?
 

Unless you are doing NCAA Women's ball, the L is not suppose to have a 5 second count. So the question that was asked of you was a valid one. I cannot believe you are just finding this out?

Peace

JRut, Please explan why? And where is this in the Mechanics book? And Yes, this is the 1st I've heard of this. Maybe, its because in HS the area outside the paint is a small area for the L, and usually there is no time to count before the post player starts his move to the paint.

#302
 

Do not have an official answer, but I am sure it is because the primary job of the Lead is to cover plays close to the paint. It just does not make sense to have a five second count all over the court if the player moves. Not an issue in Women's games.


Page 48, number 302.

As I stated before, it would not be practical for the Lead to have a 5 second count, when the count could continue all over the court. NCAA Women does not have that issue, they only have the count when the ball handler is holding the ball, not dribbling. And the NBA also does not have a "regular" 5 second count, and that is where the NCAA Women get their basic philosophies from.

Peace

PA mechanics
 

In PA 3-man mechanics, we are taught that the lead never has a visible 5 sec count except in throw-in administration. The T is suppose to cover that area for closely guarded counts.

This may change from state to state.

2 person or 3 person? As a lead in 2 person your coverage is free throw line and below.You should have a count if you need to apply it! GO Bart!!!

Re: #302
 

Now this does kinda makes sense. The count starts in my primary, dribbler leaves the area to the top of key. I guess you wouldn't want the L looking at the top. However, we are only talking 5 sec. and the C and T have to do the same and its not a problem.

Questionable

Chuck,

great response, we all get confused with the NCAA 3 whistle rule vs the high school rule.

Re: Re: #302
 

Huh? http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...y_watchout.gif

Re: Re: Re: #302
 

It does talk about the C and the T, but doesn't say anything about the L.

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...y_watchout.gif

I just wanted to see if I could copy the face.

I guess.
 

Well Bart. So if they book says that the T and the C have the three point shot attempt, so you have to have a specific reference to disallow the L from putting up the 3 point shot?

Bart, this is not allowed. If you attend any camp, they will not allow it that. Not unless you are going to a Women's camp. I realize that you seem to be having trouble with understanding that the Women's mechanics are not the same as the Men's or the NF, but they are. One of the reasons that there were officials that got in trouble for not using Women's mechanics in NCAA games in my area. They are not the same. The lead cannot in Men's or NF give a 5 second count. Any count from the Lead is an NBA/NCAA Women's thang. ;)

Peace

Re: I guess.
 

Nothing says they "cannot". Perhaps "shouldn't" is more approriate. Yes, the mechanics are different, but if you are counting 5, they're not going to run on the floor and tie your arm to your waist to prevent it. If the lead does signal a 3 point shot or calls 5 seconds, then, it's a 3-pointer or a 5 second violation unless I see something different.

Re: Re: I guess.
 

You are right. There is no one holding a gun to anyone's head if they count as the lead. But I know many assignors that might not hire you or might limit your schedule if you do such a thing. Just like there is nothing holding you back from signaling a 3 point shot in a 3 Person HS game as well. But you might just suffer some consequences. And if you do that in games I do or with people that I am used to work with, you would be the only one doing it. Because even the D1 Women's officials that I have worked with this year, did not do that in a HS game that I worked.

So it comes back to the thing I always say, it is a free country, but if you want to be respected or get opportunities at the HS level, do not bring those college mechanics to that level. Of course there are some things that are acceptable (before this year it was the kick signal), but this is not one of them.

Peace

Re: I guess.
 

The book doesn't word it the way you say above. Its talks about transition from C to T and T to C where the official continues the count.

OK I give, uncle, no mass, you win. I feel like I'm on a losing streek.

Bart, Bart, Bart!!!
 

Bart,

If you want to show up working a game in a tutu, then show up with at tutu. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/wiggle2.gif

That is totally your choice what you do. I am not one of the folks you have to explain why you are doing what you are doing.

Peace

Re: #302
 

There is nothing in Paragraph 302 of the 2003-05 NFHS Officials Manual that prohibits the L from having a five second count.

MTD, Sr.

Re: Re: #302
 

Whatever you say Mark. :rolleyes:

Peace

Re: Re: Re: #302
 

You can roll your eyes Jeff, but Paragraph 302 says nothing about prohibiting the L from having a five second count. I suggest that you actually read what the paragraph says before you run your mouth about it.

MTD, Sr.

For College Men - the 2003-04 CCA 3-Man Mechanics manual provides a diagram of court coverage for 5-second counting violations on page 74 (Section 18 - Counting, Article 3 - Five Second Count). The front court is divided nearly in half. T has the area bounded by: halfcourt line, the near sideline, the baseline (to the FT lane line) and the "mid-line" of the floor - from half-court to the FT line. C has his entire half of the floor including the entire 3-second area. It clearly provides the 5-second counting responsibility to either T or C depending on location of the ball; INCLUDING when the offensive post player has the ball on the block directly in front of the L.

While I cannot cite the specific NFHS rule or mechanic, I have ALWAYS been instructed by clinicians, assignors, and veteran officials that L should NEVER have a 5 second count using NFHS mechanics.

Re: Re: Re: Re: #302
 

OK Mark. Have the Lead start a count near the endline and have to make sure they have a closely guarded player all the way to the division line. Because the Lead can see the entire play and determine if a defender is within 6 feet and it would be acceptable for the lead to then blow a 5 second call. You are right Mark, what the the heck was I thinking? The Lead can call a 5 second call. That is extremely practical. I will make sure I talk to our state to tell them your assessment and make sure they follow it.

Anything else you want to share? http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...pshakehead.gif

Peace