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-   -   Indiana goes to three-person in state tournament (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/12339-indiana-goes-three-person-state-tournament.html)

OverAndBack Thu Feb 19, 2004 07:22am

Interesting:

http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/122028-4238-036.html

From that:
Quote:


"I am not a three-referee advocate because there are enough fouls called the way it is," Lawrence North boys coach Jack Keefer said.

"I'm scared that the third person will call just to call and justify his being there," (Perry Meridian girls coach Mike) Armstrong said.

And, then, later in the article:

Quote:


Nationally, 26 states have all state tournament games officiated by three-person crews, according to the most recent survey by the National Federation of State High School Associations.

Nine more states have at least some games with three officials. Other data show that foul totals have not increased in those states, according to NFHS assistant director Mary Struckhoff.

"Statistically speaking, fouls are about the same," Struckhoff said. "But the game is managed better, rough play is caught earlier and things go more smoothly because tempers are calmed."

Well, there you go, coach. Now sit down.

I've never worked three-person (heck, I haven't hardly done any two-person) - what's the feeling among those of you who have done both, is it the way to go?

mick Thu Feb 19, 2004 08:26am

Quote:

Originally posted by OverAndBack


I've never worked three-person (heck, I haven't hardly done any two-person) - what's the feeling among those of you who have done both, is it the way to go?


Without a doubt, a proper three-whistle is better than a proper "two" every night.
mick


ronny mulkey Thu Feb 19, 2004 09:15am

Inexperience
 
Inexperience with 3 man mechanics might lead to some inconsistencies in the beginning of the 3 whistle program. But, as more and more people/crews get exposed to it, there is no contest when it comes to determining which system works best.

Hopefully, the Indiana state tournament will be filled with officials that have been working it at the college level.

DJ Thu Feb 19, 2004 09:27am

Hopefully!
 
hopefully the Indiana state tourney will be worked by the high school officials who have earned the right to be there and if they happen to work some college ball the thats great but you do not have to work college ball to be a great high school official.

ChuckElias Thu Feb 19, 2004 09:27am

What Mick said.

Jurassic Referee Thu Feb 19, 2004 09:44am

What Chuck said.

tomegun Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:56am

What JR said.

tomegun Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:57am

What Tomegun......Oh that's me.

Rich Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:42am

Re: Hopefully!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DJ
hopefully the Indiana state tourney will be worked by the high school officials who have earned the right to be there and if they happen to work some college ball the thats great but you do not have to work college ball to be a great high school official.
Unless of course Indiana is one of those states where the top officials work 95% college games and then dominate the HS tournament.

ronny mulkey Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:57am

Re: Hopefully!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DJ
hopefully the Indiana state tourney will be worked by the high school officials who have earned the right to be there and if they happen to work some college ball the thats great but you do not have to work college ball to be a great high school official.
DJ,

You are right, of course, but you do have to call 3-man a lot to be comfortable and efficient with it. I should have just said, I hope that they use people that have earned the right to be there AND have gotten some 3 man experience somewhere. Where would that be in Indiana? When we converted here, we had good officials inexperienced in 3-man and it showed. On the court, some things would not get called or awkwardly called, which led to administators/coaches saying the exact same things quoted in the article.

Eventually, the goal is to get to the point where people are saying the same thing they always do - "the refs did a terrible job"(no mention of how many) :>)

JRutledge Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:10pm

In most games with talented players, you tend to be a second behind in many two person games, but when you do 3 person games, you see the whole play.

Studies show that there is no corrilation between 3 person and more fouls. Actually if I am not mistaken, the fouls were less and more accurate in a 3 person game.

The only thing is I hope the State of Indiana tries to train you guys on 3 Person instead of just throwing you to the wolves. It took our state a couple years for the officials to get used to the system. And it is very difficult to get a game that is not 3 person at the varsity level.

Peace

mick Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
In most games with talented players, you tend to be a second behind in many two person games, but when you do 3 person games, you see the whole play.

Studies show that there is no corrilation between 3 person and more fouls. Actually if I am not mistaken, the fouls were less and more accurate in a 3 person game.

The only thing is I hope the State of Indiana tries to train you guys on 3 Person instead of just throwing you to the wolves. It took our state a couple years for the officials to get used to the system. And it is very difficult to get a game that is not 3 person at the varsity level.

Peace

Rut,
Michigan HSAA, I understand, had a three-official clinic, for a time, prior to 1/4-final to final games, where three whistles were used, to ensure the officials would provide a certain amount of competence to the teams.

MHSAA last year, I think, stopped the practice because of the assumption that all (or at least enough) qualified officials are up to date with the three official mechanics.

mick

JRutledge Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick


Rut,
Michigan HSAA, I understand, had a three-official clinic, for a time, prior to 1/4-final to final games, where three whistles were used, to ensure the officials would provide a certain amount of competence to the teams.

MHSAA last year, I think, stopped the practice because of the assumption that all (or at least enough) qualified officials are up to date with the three official mechanics.

mick

In our state 3 Person clinics and camps are a requirement of our license. And if you want to do the playoffs, you have to attend a 6 hour 3 Person Clinic in order to be elgible at all (classroom and court). And most regular season games are 3 Person. So officials in my state, 3 Person is like riding a bike. Even for the less experienced officials, they tend to have a general understanding of the system. We benefited from the camps. But it did not seem like it was going to last the way things went for the first couple years.

Peace

LDUB Thu Feb 19, 2004 01:05pm

In Illinois, a few years back the IHSA switched to a three man crew for all varsity contests. I think it was a good move in the long run. In the begining some officials may not be used to having the extra guy out there. But once they get the hang of it, the games are better officiated.

DJ Thu Feb 19, 2004 01:59pm

Great!
 
Three man is great for those who get a chance to work it but some officials may not have an opportunity to work three man and may be excellent officials but be eliminated from consideration because of their lack of 3 person opportunities and this in my opinion if very unfair.


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