Kick or no?

[ChuckElias]

Defender jumps, sticking out arms and a leg. Pass misses the leg, but deflects off the hand and bounces down off the foot.

Is this a kick? This is a question to me b/c the defender intentionally raised his leg, but that's not why the ball hit it.

Somebody asked me and I wasn't really sure how to answer. Whaddya think?

[Damian]

It sounds like the attempt by the defender was to stop the pass by either hand or foot. Since it hit his foot, its a kick regardless of whether it hit his hand first.

[One-Whistle]

Damien:

I believe you misread the original posting (as I just realized that I did, as well). The ball did NOT contact the leg.

However, if it did contact the leg, it is a judgement call....

I have called some kicks, but also "no-called" many. I will no-call if the ball hits the leg and I believe it was not an "intentional" effort to kick the ball in its original path.



[Edited by One-Whistle on Feb 13th, 2004 at 11:41 PM]

[rcwilco]

Kick is intentional. As I have had it explained to me did the leg go to the ball or the ball to the leg? Like already stated judgement about if the leg intentionally kicked the ball.

[zebraman]

I vote for the kick violation too.

Z

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Defender jumps, sticking out arms and a leg. Pass misses the leg, but deflects off the hand and bounces down off the foot.

Was the foot still moving when the ball hit it, or had the defender completed his kicking(sticking out) motion?

I was told by one of our more experienced officials here that if it hits the hand first, there cannot be a kicking violation, since it touched another part of the body first and that it hit the leg as a secondary touching. I wasn't about to argue with him, as he does JUCO and NAIA ball along with high school (plus he's a huge former Div. I baseball pitcher!). I asked another experienced official (this one has done Div. 2 ball some) and he said the same thing. He said that calling a kick after it hits the hand is the wrong call and not a smart one at that, because not everyone will call it the same way, and the inconsistency will become a problem within our state.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Defender jumps, sticking out arms and a leg. Pass misses the leg, but deflects off the hand and bounces down off the foot.

Is this a kick? This is a question to me b/c the defender intentionally raised his leg, but that's not why the ball hit it.

Somebody asked me and I wasn't really sure how to answer. Whaddya think?

Hmmm... kicking is an intentional violation.

I suppose I would have a kick if the player intentionally directed the ball to his lower leg via his hand. Otherwise, how is the player to know where the ball will when it is apparent that it will not hit his lower leg? The answer is he doesn't. At this point, the touching of his lower leg is unintentional and no violation existed.

Are we in a situation where we now have to judge the jumping style of players?

[Mitcher]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

Hmmm... kicking is an intentional violation.

I suppose I would have a kick if the player intentionally directed the ball to his lower leg via his hand. Otherwise, how is the player to know where the ball will when it is apparent that it will not hit his lower leg? The answer is he doesn't. At this point, the touching of his lower leg is unintentional and no violation existed.

Are we in a situation where we now have to judge the jumping style of players? [/QUOTE]

Come on, guys. You're putting way too much thought into "intentional." The player raised his leg in an attempt to kick it. Although it hit his hand first, the leg still contacted the ball, and while the leg was in the air!

That's a kicking violation.

[RecRef]

Originally posted by Mitcher

Hmmm... kicking is an intentional violation.

I suppose I would have a kick if the player intentionally directed the ball to his lower leg via his hand. Otherwise, how is the player to know where the ball will when it is apparent that it will not hit his lower leg? The answer is he doesn't. At this point, the touching of his lower leg is unintentional and no violation existed.

Are we in a situation where we now have to judge the jumping style of players?

Come on, guys. You're putting way too much thought into "intentional." The player raised his leg in an attempt to kick it. Although it hit his hand first, the leg still contacted the ball, and while the leg was in the air!

That's a kicking violation. [/QUOTE]

I think not. The path you are going down is what happens if on a run B blocks a pass with his hand and it defects down and hits the foot? Not a violation in my book.

The second part is except for a missed punch the ruels have no provision for what a player “intends” to do. May the Lord help us if we have to call on intent.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Mitcher

Hmmm... kicking is an intentional violation.

I suppose I would have a kick if the player intentionally directed the ball to his lower leg via his hand. Otherwise, how is the player to know where the ball will when it is apparent that it will not hit his lower leg? The answer is he doesn't. At this point, the touching of his lower leg is unintentional and no violation existed.

Are we in a situation where we now have to judge the jumping style of players?

Come on, guys. You're putting way too much thought into "intentional." The player raised his leg in an attempt to kick it. Although it hit his hand first, the leg still contacted the ball, and while the leg was in the air!

That's a kicking violation. [/QUOTE]

I disagree 100%. While the potential exists for a kicking violation, this player that jumped in the air is allowed to do so. This is not a violation. Unless judged otherwise, the direction the ball travels after hitting the hand is incidental, and therefore releases his leg from possibility of causing a violation.

[nine01c]

Not a kick.
I think in general refs call way too many "kicks" when it was just incidential contact (like a stampede running for the ball, and it goes off a kid's foot inadvertently, or when offense makes a bad pass right into a defender's stationary foot).

[Ballen]

Ok...this is one I'd have to see but for now I'm with Jurassic on this. If the kicking motion has been completed by the foot returning to the floor then,-->NC. Otherwise, we have a ball that has touched B's lower leg as a result of intent with the complication of a touch. (a second judgement) If the ball goes OOB, great...A's ball. If the ball goes to A; --->NC. If the ball goes to B or we have a scramble; TWEET--->KICK.

Is this not consistant with the intent of the kicking violation rule 9.4?

I know that I'm applying A/D to a violation and this has been debated in a recent thread...however...my game is flowing here and I'm being consistant with regard to intent, IMO.

B intentionally raised the leg in an attempt to deflect the ball and if B indeed deflects the ball prior to the foot returning to the floor, then I have another judgement to make. If B recovers the deflection or A is disadvantaged by a scramble --->TWEET--->KICK.

If my partner (Mitcher?) comes in with a KICK, even though A maintains possession, I'm ok and hustling into position...it's by the book.

[Ballen]

I disagree 100%. While the potential exists for a kicking violation, this player that jumped in the air is allowed to do so. This is not a violation. Unless judged otherwise, the direction the ball travels after hitting the hand is incidental, and therefore releases his leg from possibility of causing a violation.

Unless judged otherwise... We agree...my judgement is based on whether the kicking motion (not jumping motion) is complete AND if not then whether A has been dissadvantaged by having been hindered from participating in normal offensive movement.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Was the foot still moving when the ball hit it, or had the defender completed his kicking(sticking out) motion?

There's a clarification I need from you, JR.

When this player jumps into the air and his leg "sticks out", undoubtedly it will have to "stick in" again so that s/he may land properly. When the leg is sticking in, and the ball strikes KoB (knee or below), do you view this to be a kick ball?