Girls 4A Varsity tonight. Team B has a girl who is very tall and... shall we say... a little rotund. I notice she has her shirt untucked right away. Make her tuck it in right?

But then I sense that she is keeping it untucked to avoid having to have a tight shirt that shows how big her belly is. So, living in liberal Washington State, I show my sensitive side and let her have it untucked all night.

What's next?

Z

I have seen several high school girls' teams that wear jerseys that are meant to be untucked. Perhaps this was one of those?

I've done the same thing, zebraman. Let's never forget that these are boys and girls. They have enough issues to deal with in school.

Why didn't I think of that?
 

I'll tell you what's next. . .you just game me the perfect excuse for not tucking in my stripes any more! :D

AMEN!!!

It's posts like these that allow me to step back from time to time to take a much broader look at the picture. Take a deep breath or two and appreciate my fellow 'avocators', the players and others involved in this great game and go down the road and have a better day than I might have.

Thanks.

Had a sitch this morning where I thought of the wording, "These kids have enough to deal with." 6th grade boys rec ball. Each team is a mixture of very talented with, uh, let's say, less experienced. Every kid must, by league rule, play at least one half. Before the game started, I told one player that he needed to take off his white T-shirt (being worn under a dark green jersey). Pretty soon, I noticed him sitting on the bench crying, and the coach talking earnestly to him. I sort of went "to the table" to eavesdrop. The coach was very kindly and warmly trying to talk the kid out of sitting out the game. I don't know what the kid's issues were, although part way through the game I saw him mother giving him the eyeball, and felt kinda sorry for the kid. I think he didn't like the way the jersey looked on him without the T-shirt. I went into the little room where the various rec league stuff is stored and shuffled through the lost and found until I uncovered a dark T-shirt I took it to the coach and he was able to convince the kid to wear it and play. When the kid first entered the game, I noticed his shirt was completely untucked, but I just didn't have the cold-blooded thing going today, and I let it go. I also told the coach, quietly at a dead ball, to not sweat the tucking thing. After seeing how upset the kid was, and that mother, I figured he had enough to deal with already.

Maybe I'm a hard@$$. I had a similar looking girl in an earlier game and I kept insisting that she get the shirt tucked in. I was actually thinking that this is not my fault the school doesn't have a jersey that fits her. I knew why she was letting it come out. I'm normally fairly sensitive but I kept thinking that this could bite me in the butt if I asked another girl to tuck it in.

comments?

Why make him take off the T-shirt? That is unless his league has specific rules on dress.

On Saturdays I do rec games for my association and the approach we all take is call the game not the little nits. The kids are there to have fun so why should one care what they have on? For my own rec league, which I do on Sundays, the only dress rule we have is that the kid must wear a jersey and even that rule can be waved by the senior official of the game.

Please, please don't take this as an attack on you but these are kids, just kids in a rec league not some HS game covered by the NFHS.

HHHmmmmm, because its the RULE. And the reason its the rule is to prevent the confussion of a player throwing the ball to the opponent by mistake.

This is an easy one. While I don't see it very often, I've never had any player or coach say anything. Its funny, we had this the other night. My partner caught it as soon as the player entered. No problem, the player had the shirt off as quick as you can say....well, it was so fast, I don't think anyone even noticed.

It IS the rule in this league, and it is emphasized quite heavily. It helps the kids, as Bart says, and it also helps the refs differentiate the teams. All the coaches know the rule, and the other six kids I had talked to that day didnt have any problem with it. If they are going to wear a T under their jersey, they carry one of each color (all the teams in this league are green and white) and just wear which ever. We don't pick nits at this level, and try to let the kids play, but this one rule and a couple of others are particularly important to the baord, so we try to stick to it.

Ok, it’s your rules and so be it in your games.

BTW, I don’t for one-second buy the argument that Brad puts forward that it will prevent the confusion of a player throwing the ball to the opponent by mistake. How many sq. inches of green jersey shirt vs. whiteT-shirt is the thrower looking at when he is about to throw? Speaking of such things it time to leave for the gym.

Tuck it in. It's the school's problem, or her problem, that she doesn't have a jersey that fits. That's not my problem.

Are you going to allow the girl who got her ears pierced that day to keep the earrings in because "the holes will close up," but disallow everyone else from wearing earrings?

It's all part of the uniform. Tough. Overweight officials have to keep their shirts tucked in...

Earrings are a safety issue, and the holes won't close up in an hour. If so, then she shouldn't have gotten the ears pierced during BBall season.
I don't see the safety issue with tucking the shirts in. I frankly don't think this rule is that big a deal. (I enforce it, but would rather not.)

So when I start the National Fund to Buy Well-Fitting Uniforms for overweight players who attend school in impoverished districts where the roof leaks, and teachers have to work in storage rooms, you'll be the first to make a contribution?

Well, I for one find it incredibly bewildering to look out over a sea of colors and try to choose which color on which player means defense vs offense. If there's only one contrasting T-shirt, it's not too bad, but if you allow any contrasting color, it really can get pretty confusing. And I've got more experience than these little 6th graders, most of whom have never played before this year.

When you say Your rules, Its sounds like you are not aware its in NF and NCAA rule book.

BTW, I don’t for one-second buy the argument that Brad puts forward that it will prevent the confusion of a player throwing the ball to the opponent by mistake. How many sq. inches of green jersey shirt vs. whiteT-shirt is the thrower looking at when he is about to throw? Speaking of such things it time to leave for the gym.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, but you are mistaken. I've played all my life, and still do. I've seen it many times. I even had a player throw me a pass the other night when I was officiating. Players just see out of the corner of the eye a color. So its not just me its NF and NCAA. So many others disagree with you.

I like enforcing the this rule. There are other refs in my association that do not. These other refs are a little loose in other areas as well. By enforcing this rule (usually before the game starts), it gives my partner and I the opportunity to show the players, coach and table that we are in control of the game and we know the rules.

When you don't do these small things, other things become problems.

If the roof was leaking and the teachers worked in storage rooms, I'd hope that the school district would put more money towards fixing those problems first, and think of athletics second. It's not the officials' faults the player is overweight. Your sarcasm, as usual, is noted.

quote:
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Originally posted by TriggerMN
Tuck it in. It's the school's problem, or her problem, that she doesn't have a jersey that fits. That's not my problem.
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Originally posted by Rainmaker
So when I start the National Fund to Buy Well-Fitting Uniforms for overweight players who attend school in impoverished districts where the roof leaks, and teachers have to work in storage rooms, you'll be the first to make a contribution?
__________________
There are some that are wise. And there are others that are otherwise.

How do you know Rainmaker was being sarcastic? The comments could have had Sardonic implications or were just plain satirical remarks. Those that are wise always know their rules, especially definitions.

You go rainmaker. Already too much disparity in school systems all over this country. Interesting reading "Amazing Grace" by Jonathan Kozol.

But I still ask the kids to tuck it in.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. I've played all my life, and still do. I've seen it many times. I even had a player throw me a pass the other night when I was officiating. Players just see out of the corner of the eye a color. So its not just me its NF and NCAA. So many others disagree with you. [/B][/QUOTE]

Let me see if I can paint this so that you will understand.

Go back and read Rainmaker’s original post in on this. We are talking about a “RECREATIONAL” league here NOT “NF or NCAA.” In my reply to Juulie I am presenting a different philosophy of running a rec league. We don’t emphasize or enforce things like uniform rules. We put our emphasis on providing a teaching environment, a fun environment, and safe environment for the kids. With programs for over 1800+ kids ages 5 to 18/19 and 400 adults, both men and woman, I say we are providing a service that our community is content with. Rainmaker’s area (dare I say part of the Left Coast) appears to have different way of looking at RECREATIONAL ball than we do in Northern Virginia. If the rec game she is talking about is in Padgett’s league, I know it is a fine organization. We corresponded about 5 years or so ago and my league adopted some of his leagues philosophy, though not all. I’ll add even more so you can be appalled with us. We don’t even follow the design rules of the NF for our jerseys. On top of that, we have numbers 6, 7, and 8 on our kids’ jerseys. We save $2.00 a jersey that way as each numeral cost a dollar. The NF may not like it but the $1300+ we save

Zooming out some, I have yet to walk into a gym, when I am doing a contracted rec game for my NF/IAABO association, where I don’t see all types of uniform and logo violations. Should I enforce NF rules? I think not.

I’ve also played basketball all of my life and I’ll be 56 before this season is over. This from “all skins” games during the 90-degree heat and 90 %humidity of New Orleans’ summers on school blacktops, through HS bench warmer, to college rec ball, to adult ball. I’ve never had a problem with identifying my team members.

Now if we are talking about a HS game sanctioned by the VHSL this is a different matter.

Ok, i am not going to try and be the a$$ here and I hope I say this proper as I do not want to offend anyone. I know i am the new guy but I run into this alot in baseball/softball too.

I agree that it is a rule, and rules where meant to be inforced. That is why we are out there! Exspecially with the kids. Kids now a days are given to many reason to break rules. Kids also tend to to test the waters and see just how far they can go before something is said or done. Not just in sports but in life also.

Now i am not a cold hearted person and do understand that there are kids and teams and communities that do not have the money to make sure everyone has a perfectly fitting uniform.

But what I would do is politley pull this child over to the side with the coach and politically explain that we do have a rule about keeping the shirt tucked in. I would also explain that i understand the situation and what i would ask is that she just try to keep it tucked in the best she can and during dead balls I would kindly remind her and to not feel that I was " getting on her" about it. That i would just help her to try and remeber to tuck it in now and then.

I am a firm believer that rules are in place for a reason and every attempt should be made to adhere to them. But i also believe that kids whether poor or wealthy should get every opportunity to play.

Two years ago, I had a young man, about 12 years old. I was umpiring his baseball game. I was behind the plate. I noticed him at the begining of the game sitting on the bench with his glove on cheering on his team. After a couple of innings i asked the coach why he wasnt playing? Coach said because his parents didnt have the money to get him a uniform but he wanted to be part of the team so they put him on the roster and let him sit on the bench with his friends.

well the uniform rule in that league was not real strict, basically the shirts had to be matching colors with a number, shirts had to be tucked, hats must be worn properly and the must wear some type of sports shoe.

Well this team had white shirts with pin strips, So in talking with the coach, the coach really wanted to play him but other officials wouldnt let him play because he didnt have a matching shirt. I said well that is easily fixed in this situation.

So I went to my bag pulled out an extra, white T shirt that i always carry, went back to the concesion stand and got a black marker and put a number on the back of the shirt. Went to the kids parents and explained to them that if they would let him wear this shirt he could play in the game. They agreed and that was probably the happiest little man i have seen in a long time.

So i guess the moral to this book is that Yes we need to inforce the rules as they are written. But as an official you can also take that extra step to see that a kid that wants to play can play.

Again, Hope i didnt say anything to offend anyone I am at work and typing faster than my brain works... =)

[Edited by jcarter on Feb 16th, 2004 at 09:22 AM]

THANK YOU RAINMAKER!!!

I have an over weight daughter and the school (who's responibility it is to provide the uniforms) doesnt have anything close to fit, what should she do??? Sit out??

Her sport is not basketball, but bowling and she is ranked 17th in the state!

Her coach makes them tuck in there shirts as they do in basketball, so should my daughter sit out knowing that she can help them win a state title becouse her shirt doesnt fit.

Thank God the coach can see the big picture unlike you Tigger MN!!

Great Story, I nominate you for the humanitarian award.

I agree at levels less than varsity, we should try to keep players in the game as far as uniforms are concerned.

Weighty issue
 

Come on, lets not be to hard on Trigger MN, In Minnesota they have to keep those shirts tucked in because they only play outside in the winter. ;)

quote:
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the coach really wanted to play him but other officials wouldnt let him play because he didnt have a matching shirt. I said well that is easily fixed in this situation.

So I went to my bag pulled out an extra, white T shirt that i always carry, went back to the concesion stand and got a black marker and put a number on the back of the shirt. Went to the kids parents and explained to them that if they would let him wear this shirt he could play in the game. They agreed and that was probably the happiest little man i have seen in a long time.
[Edited by jcarter on Feb 16th, 2004 at 09:22 AM]
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Great Story, I nominate you for the humanitarian award.

I agree at levels less than varsity, we should try to keep players in the game as far as uniforms are concerned.






HEH, Thanks Bart. For me it is all about the kids. Even though this is my first year for basketball I have been umping softball/baseball for many years. Yes it is nice to do some high school games and I do some rec sports for that extra cash but for me it is donating my time to the local organizations for the kids. I think i actually work harder at the kids games than i do the adults because to me. It is more than just officiating when it is for the kids.

I feel that in this day and age most coaches do not teach rules to the kids in sports anymore. That is why i work harder for them because not only do I want to call a good game I want them to understand the rules behind the calls. It is not uncommon for me to stop in the middle of a game and explain why certain things happen.

I think that if the kids were taught more about the rules we would not get a lot of the tantrum throwing that we see in High School games and above. Currently it is all about making money to these kids now. How much money can I make in the futur playing this sport. Instead of learning and enjoying what it is to be part of a team and learning the ins and outs of a sport.

I've had this a few times this year. I've told the players that I understand the jersey not fitting well, but asked them to please make an effort (make sure you tuck it in during dead balls) to keep it in. Seems to work well.

Shirts In!
 

Shirts should be tucked in for Fed. games but if an official says that he would not be strick about a rule for a good reason as stated earlier in this thread I would certainly respect his/her judgement. To loosely interpet and consistantly not inforce this rule in a general sense does no good for players, coaches and other referees who are trying to play by the rules. But for every rule there is an exception! Now what if someone else decides they are an exception too and they were an exception when the other referees were working. Here in lies the problem.

Trigger, if I offended you, I'm sorry. Usually, the smart remark doesn't come quickly to mind, so my bite-my-tongue reflex is not well developed. I should have thought more carefully before I got so snippy. I'm just feeling touchy about the tax system here. In Portland, money doesn't go to fixing the roof, OR the athletics, and the uniforms are pathetic unless the kids can pull off a fundraiser, or some parents chip in. In the poorest couple of schools, this means that the uniforms are just plain awful. Even varsity doesn't always have matching unofirms, and seldom do they all fit even remotely. JV and freshmen are lucky if they have real jerseys, and haven't settled for T-shirts. It's not the officials fault, but it would be our fault to not let someone play because they are a bit overweight, and can't keep their shirt tucked.

Whew -- I'll get off the soapbox now

jersey
 

I was working a game this season, the coach from the home team asked the R if the visiting team player could wear a dark jersey from the home team. Talk about confusion!! He did not want to lend them a jersey. He was looking to us for reforcement.The R talked to me about the RULE.No way!

When s/he goes to the hoop on a drive and a defender gets their hand stuck in her/his UNTUCKED shirt, I have nothing!

TUCK IT IN! NO IF'S, AND'S, OR BUTT'S! Plus, it looks TERRIBLE, unless designed to be worn outside the shorts.

Weighty
 

In the state that I am in, the teachers are the highest paid in the nation. In order to keep their fiscal advantage, other programs for the kids have been cut from the budget. This year we had the Freshmen basketball program (girls and boys) cut. Needless to say, something as trivial as new uniforms, was long gone. Hand me downs has become a necessary evil. Despite what the rule book says about the way uniforms are suppose to be worn, excepting varsity assignments, you will have to excuse me while I look the other way. I have heard many things from the bleachers during the years I have officiated,
but I have <b><i>never</b></i> heard, "Hey ref, make them tuck in their shirts."