I've seen three threads recently come down to advantage/disadvantage. One was about three seconds (call when an advantage is gained) and one was about the T for making contact OOB. The third was about driving the lane with heavy contact.

I know in the soccer rule book, there is an allowance made for A/D. However, I don't see the same latitude in the basketball rule book.

I will admit to passing on the contact OOB technical with a few seconds left in a blowout when the winning team had the ball. It would have had no effect on the final outcome. However, I am not sure it is right to change the way I call penalties (3 seconds) or PC fouls as to whether it is advantageous for a team or not.

Now, if they rewrite the rule book, and make a signal for ADVANTAGE: PLAY ON, I'll enforce it. But if a coach is mad that I called a foul on the other team that 'stole' a layup from his team, I'm sorry! It was still a foul. I've got enough to think about getting all the calls right without trying to determine who gains an advantage by me making or kicking a call. Enforce the rule book, as written. That's why they wrote it. 'Nuff said.

RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!!

[Edited by mplagrow on Feb 12th, 2004 at 06:53 AM]

The FIBA rulebook now has advantage/disadvantage as part of its fouls AND violations. NF and NCAA do not make it official, but refs use adv/disadv. in many instances and I believe that it's for the better in most cases.

Know what? I agree with you- to a degree. I think that some officials really get carried away with advantage/disadvantage, and try to apply it in situations where it was never meant to apply. Usually, A/D should apply only to deciding whether physical contact warranted a foul call, or not. In normal play, about the only violation that A/D should apply to is 3-seconds, imo. Note that I said "normal" play. I'm not talking about blowouts, etc. You never know when the violation that you chose to ignore might eventually come down to a missed possession by a losing team, that may well have won a 1 or 2 point game with that extra possession. If you ignore that violation, you sure aren't "disadvantaging" the team that committed it, but you are taking away a perfectly legal "advantage" or extra possession from the other team. The other major problem that I have with A/D is that I'm seeing inexperienced officials trying to apply the concept. They're usually at a stage in their development where all they should be worrying about is getting the basic fouls and violations right, and instead they're thinking about calls instead of just making them. I'm certainly not against A/D, but you gotta learn to walk before you can run.

As a new official I have viewed the advantage/disadvantage as a very subjective rule, which results in much inconsistancies. I have been watching experienced officials in an attempt to observe how they call, obviously using advantage/disadvantage and it hasn't taught me a thing. Its had enough with the "incidental contact" determination. (I agree with you Jurassic).

I am going to apologize for not staying up on the FIBA situation concerning advantage/disadvantage, but as far as the NFHS/NCAA rules are concerned advantage/disadvantage is to be applied to foul situations only and not to violation situations.

It is much easier to call a game without considering advantage/disadvantage. Part of what separates the wheat from the chaff is the ability to make such judgments consistently and fairly throughout a game.

You are absolutely wrong -- if a player passes a ball to a teammate and his arm gets clipped IT IS NOT A FOUL. It is an INcorrect call to make in that situation. Yet, it is easier to make the call becuase it required less patience and judgment. If you can hold the whistle and, if the pass isn't completed to a teammate, THEN call the foul, you've made a better decision.

All the places I've lived you simply don't make it to the varsity high school level without understanding and using ADV/DISADV to a certain degree.

De jure, maybe, but de facto?

If we applied the three second rule as written without considering adv/disadv, we'd call it 4-6 times a game. If you want to work lower level basketball for the rest of your life, you call a lot of these. Otherwise, you call what needs to be called, like Chuck's.

I've called this some this season, but ALWAYS when needed, like when a camper receives a pass or gets position because of the violation.

I have to agree. I am not calling 3 seconds and a player just has a foot in the lane and his teammates are making no attempt to get them the ball. And with all due respect to those that are not used to working varsity ball and above, there are not many times they hang out there. Most players in the paint are fighting for position and moving so much they are not in the lane that long at all anymore. Most players now do not want to play their back to the basket, like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar did back in the day. They usually like to play like Kevin Garnett if they are that tall and talented. I think when people talk about 3 seconds, it is really sometimes overblown. And it is not like any official that has any ability is really concentrating on where a player's foot is, when guys are screening and moving in a small area.

Peace

Hello to all,
I have been reading this forum with great interest for a while now. I am a middle school girls coach who has also officiated many sports at the HS/MS/rec level through the years. This is my first post on this forum.

This thread caught my eye because it seems that I have noticed officials who, when there is contact on a shot attempt, seem to delay blowing the whistle until they see if the shot was good. Only when they see it is not good do they make a call. I have seen this more and more recently and have always questioned it.

I would welcome your comments.

MisterV,

I delay the whistle on shots, when it is unclear how much contact was made. But I do not wait for the shot to go, I wait to see if the shot is affected by the contact. Or I wait to see if the shooter is prevented from following thru or finishing their move. Whether the shot goes in or not is not relevent to me and many other officials I know. It is the same reason I am not going to call a foul when a shooter is purposely attemping a "circus shot" in an effort to get a foul called in their favor.

Peace

In Wa state the last couple of years there has been directions from the state office that A/D is not a consideration, that a "foul is a foul". I find that next to impossible to adhere to personally. Maybe to say that a situation does not have a direct impact on a play would be a way to address it. A newer official (and some older ones) never understand the implications of A/D and the game they call usually reflects tat lack of understanding. There are situations where contact may not put a player in a A/D situation but to ignore the contact would not be the wise choice. The contact on the pass mentioned above if ignored because the pass was completed could, and often does, lead to a retalition foul. The problem with the A/D is as Mark indicated in that it was carries over to violation situations by many officials where it does not apply

I work over 600 games a year from youth to adults,where every player played college or pro ball,and I can not recall one time that a player retaliated after they got hit
on the arm during a pass.

I've had players ask why I did not call a foul and I've had them ask why I had a late whistle after their team stole the ball,but I've NEVER had one player go head hunting.

mplagrow,

Please read the section in the NFHS rulebook called "the intent and purpose of the rules" on page 9.

I'll quote a bit from it: "it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be <b>intelligently </b>applied."

The 3-second rule was put in to prevent players from gaining a big advantage by camping in the key (was it Kareem's dominance or maybe Wilt's dominance that led to that rule?). The rule book gives officials that authority to call it, even if only one foot is in the lane (documentation has to be precise). However, do you really think it is in the "spirit and intent" of the rules to call "3 seconds" on a player who is in the key without gaining any advantage?

IMHO, those officials who call "3-in-the-key" every time they see it are failing to apply that rule intelligently.

Z

I think the A/D is a tricky situation just because it is not going to be understood by a lot of players and fans. The situation about the pass, A1 passes to A2, B1 contacts him on the arm, the pass strays a little but A1 completes the pass, so no call. Now, other end of the floor, B1 passes to B2, A1 contacts B1 on the arm pretty much the same as b1 hit him, the pass stays a little and B2 doesn't catch, foul on A1. Now A1 is going to be thinking, he just did the same thing to me on the other end of the floor and didn't get called for it.

It may be the right thing to do using the A/D principle, but it looks inconsistant.

Why I don't like 3 seconds...
 

The reason I hate (and I mean hate) three seconds is because this is the violation that once you call, you have to be the most consistent on. Likewise, you'll have the coaches breathing down your neck about it.

If there's no advantage, I don't call it. I don't even like it when there IS an advantage. It's a fair advantage...so they have a tall guy, big deal! Are we supposed to restrict the three point line to 3 seconds for the hot-shot shooter? No...

I agree with Chuck, I just don't like three seconds. However, it's in the rule book, so it's just one of those things I have to suck up. However, usually, a courtesy "watch three seconds" will do the job...

Maybe I am missing something here, but all contact is not a foul. The term advantage/disadvantage (not in those specific words) comes directly from the rulebook. So a "foul is a foul," you really have to explain that one to me. I agree that what is a foul at one level should be a foul at another level in principle, but that is all it is, principle. If there is contact and does not affect the play, you cannot by rule have a foul. You have to consider advantage disadvantage or you would have 20 fouls in the first 4 minutes of every game.

Peace

I like this post. I believe consistency is equally as important as advantage/disadvantage.

I agree with you that all contact is not a foul. That is what we are getting paid to determine, when and when not to blow the whistle. And that is what I was trying to imply, it is improbable NOT to utilize advantage/disadvantage, effect on the play or whatever to effectively call the game. I do not agree with your statement however that contact that does not affect the play is by rule not a foul.

How does this happen? I thought I worked a lot! I guess I'm not working hard enough! :eek:

Mregor

Well considering that incidental contact is described in detail in the rulebooks, not sure how you can just call a foul without considering adv/dis on some level. Again, without looking at 4-27, not sure I would know what a foul is. Especially the passage in Article 3 of that rule.

You are saying just call a foul because it is there. Not sure what a foul is without some of the rulebook guideline. Advantage/disadvantage comes from 4-27-3 and discribing that, "contact that does not hinder the opponents from participating in nomral defensive and offensive movements should be considered incidental." Not sure what you are using as your reference.

Peace

Can you be in the low post of the lane without gaining an advantage? I don't think you can, because you must draw the defense's attention, perhaps from a baseline shooter. They have to respect your location.

This is different in soccer, where A/D is in the rulebook. The defense can ignore any player camping by the goal because any pass to him will result in a violation. The defense can NOT rely on an official to be standing there waiting for B1 to catch a pass and blow the whistle, because that ain't the way the game is played.

Let's not confuse each other
 

I don't understand why some of you think that A/D is not applicable, or even not applied, to violations.

I would make an estimate that about 25% (that's one out of every four for the math challenged) of players that receive a pass move or change their pivot foot as part of receiving that pass. Again and again and again... and it is very, very rarely called. The player receives the pass and doesn't move from the general location but commits a violation. He has not gained any advantage or created a disadvantage for the opponents - NO CALL IS MADE and rightly so.

The same is true for the three second violation. I can spend an entire game telling people to get out of the key and counting to 3. I found that as a consequence of doing that, I rarely make any off-ball calls. I also don't make many 3-second calls because I'm trying to talk the players out of the key and trying to avoid that game interrupting call. But the big point is that I lose focus on the important things - the off-ball screens, holds, pushes. These are the things that need to be watched for and called. Those calls make the game go smoother. Now, I try my best to not get sucked into the coach's endless whining and pleading for the 3-second call.

I call the 3-second call based upon advantage/disadvantage.

In my area Advantage/Disadvantage (otherwise known as judgement) is encouraged so that one could move up. I see nothing wrong with it. I'm pretty reptillian in that I will call the game in consistency with my partner (unless he/she is just really sucking it up) and some people are by the book and some people tend the call the game mixed like I do. The better games I've seen were called with an equal mix of both adv/dadv and by the book. To me its the only way to call a basketball game.

Advantage/disadvantage is to some degree used in every sport in which the ball or puck is contested (as opposed to tennis/golf/bowling etc.). It is the only way to efficiently play the game. There is much that goes on that is considered incidental to the game in order to allow a smooth flow. Soccer is much more explicit in its use of ad/disad, but all sports will employ it.

Every well reffed game is in part that way because of effective use of this concept.

3 seconds
 

I rarely call this, but find the times I do or when a post player posting strong does not heed a warning to get out and gains an advantage. The other times or when a player drives, get stuck and does not shoot and teammates gain an advantagious rebounding position.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mplagrow

Can you be in the low post of the lane without gaining an advantage?


Of course. In fact, if you are posting up and don't receive the ball, you're giving a huge advantage to the <b> defense </b>. The defender guarding you is in the lane preventing a drive to the hoop.

Z

As far as A/D being in the rule book. Yes it is. Read the preamble. As far as three seconds. What advantages does a 5'10 guard get being in the lane of an game with 6'7" forwards when he is near the free throw lane?

I've actually cut down! 2 years ago I did 114 games in July and 110 in August,I had a total of 5 days off for two months.

Unbelievable! You are averaging 3-4 games a day, every day. How do you keep your mental focus? Not to mention the physical wear and tear on your feet/legs. I do a lot of games during the hs season and rec ball other times, but nowhere near this many.

I tread pretty lightly on this site because I know I'm not as rule savvy as most of you, and I know this site isn't really for non-refs, but for those of you who wonder why you don't get more respect, you need to look at the other side of the a/d argument, from a coach's or fan's perspective. Because a/d does have a dark side.

I've been a part of games where "incidental" contact escalates until, basically, the game gets out of control. Incidental contact becomes hard fouls, and by the time the officials start calling fouls, frustration and anger have reached a boiling point. I'm not whining about my team - we've been on the offending side as much as we've been on the offended side.

And, you're right, not all contact is a foul, but if you're not going to be consistent with your calls, or you're not going to establish ahead of time a line beyond which everything is a foul, you set yourself up for failure. If someone slaps a passer on the arm, it shouldn't matter whether the pass was successful or not in your decision to call a foul.

As for the three second call, I think not making the call is a cop-out. If you call it a couple of times, players will wise up. Or, they'll be taken out of the game.

If a player bringing in the ball uncontested picks it up, and just walks with it under his arm to half court, where the defense is waiting in a passive zone, do you call the travel? The ball handler isn't gaining an advantage. But, its a violation, so you call it. Three seconds in the lane is a violation - call it.

Coach -- You're right, and right to point it out. A/D should be applied only on the borderline calls, and doesn't matter on the hard foul, regardless of the situation. And we should keep saying that, because when we don't some newer or dizzyer refs will think we've got a rule about it like soccer, and let everything get out of hand.

I do want to make one little distinction, though, in what you said. The slap on the passer's arm, whether the pass makes it or not, may actually NOT be a foul at all if it's on the hand which is still in contact with the ball. I know YOU know that rule, but for the fans out there reading this, I just want to clarify that when the hand is in contact with the ball it's fair game. A slap can sound pretty bad, and still not be a foul.

and btw, you are one of very few coaches in this country who don't fall under the blanket criticism we often give. You try hard to improve your knowledge of the game, and the rules, and you are humble and open-minded when you are corrected. We could all learn a lesson from you.

Besides, you have a truly great signature line!

i like advantage/disadvantage.

The only problem with A/D, is that folks do not understand it. There is no dark side to it at all. You cannot call a foul on a bigger player because the smaller player just runs into him and bounces off. The defense is allowed to play too, and many think if there is any contact with the ball handler, you should call a foul. Contact can be severe and no foul. I do not care if someone gets frustrated, that is there problem. The game should be called that way, and the rules back this up.

Well I categorically disagree with that. Because just because you get slapped on the arm is not a justification for a foul. Because if you are allowed to follow thru on your pass and you make slight contact on the arm, I am not taking back a layup for a foul that had no affect on the play at all. No different if a dribbler tries to split two defenders that are just standing there basically. It would be totally inproper to call a foul on the defenders because the dribbler made a bad decision. Of course there are officials that would call a foul, but that does not make it right.

Well that would be great, but it has to be there. Most of the time people are complaining about 3 seconds when the rules do not allow that call. The higher you go up, the more you do not see a player in the lane. Players like driving to the lane, not playing with their back to the basket anymore. With all the motion offenses, you see it even less.

I have called that. And who says the dribbler is not gaining an advantage? If you have to travel to make a uncontested layup, you gained an advantage. And if you call a travel in that situation, it was probably obvious to most in the building. But then again, that is my opinion. And I have heard that some officials here do not call that, but I have yet to run into officials that have shared that philosophy. Now the problem with traveling, is that most coaches and fans do not know when it takes place. And I know many coaches that seemed to have never heard of a jump stop. Especially those schools that claim they are fundamental, when they play those "urban" teams where every player uses the jump stop to some extent. But 3 seconds starts and ends so fast, most do not even know when we have started another count.

Peace

Like I said I've cut it down,that was a terrible 2 months.
I was off a couple of days for the 4th of July and I almost died the first game back because I did nothing for 2 days!

I know it is time to recharge when I start giving a lot of T's.I can't recommend working that much for everyone,but I've had most screwy things happen in rec league games and if you can handle a prima donna ex pro player in a man's league there is no player or coach in high school that can bother you.

I don't agree that just because someone makes a layup that you shouldn't call the foul. Maybe the defender wants to foul that player before he can make an easy layup. If you don't call that foul, then maybe the next time down the defender fouls the offensive player harder.

Sorry, a foul is a foul, and sometimes the defense will gain an advantage by committing a foul.

If the defender wants to foul to stop a lay up you have an intentional foul situation.If the contact does not stop the offensive player I have a no call,if it is as you say,"Harder next time," I have an intentional foul.

You NEVER want to reward bad defense.

All slaps are not created equal.
 

Not sure you point here. I am not talking about at the end of a game. I am talking about just during normal play. And all slaps on the are are not hard, nor are they purposeful. So if you have a player touch another player's arm, not sure why you would automatically call a foul? But then again, I was always under the impression that basketball was a contact sport and there is going to be some contact from time to time. But then again, many folks seem to think all contact is a foul, you seem to be one of those people that feel that way.

Not sure what that means. Because fouls are based on how the contact affected the play, not the severity of any contact. And I know you do not hear that from officials in the Windy City. You might here what is a foul at the college level is a foul at the HS level, but all contact does not constitute fouls. If it did not, the rulebook would not address that very thing.

Peace

Judgement, Judgement, Judgement.

Every case should be about Judgement. And every case/situation is taken in context. Context of that total play, the play before it, the last time up or down the court and the entire game. What is called at one point and in one game may indeed be called something different at another point or in another game.

For example: I may pass on some slight contact that IMO, did not affect the play, but at another time or game, call it because IMO, I noticed players' level of frustration beginning to rise and IMO, I need to 'rein it in'--now I 'gotta call this one'. I try and let the players establish the tempo. If they do that and we gain a flow to the game, that is what we are all seeking. If they don't then they have turned it over to us, now we have to. I believe the top officials are able to distinguish early on when those times are and are able to make adjustments timely (ie. before things even get close to getting out of control).

That, IMO, is one of the keys that sets top officials apart from those who are not: Judgement, judgement, judgement!

Actually although FIBA has ad/disad in fouls it does not go that far for violations.

What it does say have a feeling for the game. In other words do not "nitpick"

You said 'slapped' on the arm. I'm thinking a slap and a touch on the arm are two different things.

I'm not saying 'all' contact is a foul, I'm just reading to much into your words maybe.

If I see/hear a kid getting slapped on the arm, I'm going to call it. :)

So you are going to call what you hear?

If that is the case, are you sure you are not hearing hands clap together?

Peace

A1 is taking the ball to the basket,B1 is beat and swipes at A1 slapping his left forearm.A1 has control of the ball with his right hand and passes the ball to A2 for a momentum changing dunk.

That is why you always hear,"Hold your whistle and let the play happen." By your standards you have a foul,no basket,
and B1 being rewarded for getting beat.By my and Rut's standard you have incidental contact,an assist,and B1 getting yelled at by his coach for getting beat.

Blindzebra-

great example. no way should B1 be rewarded for bad play. no coach would want that called when their team has the ball. ad/dis is about what calls are good for the game.

Early in my career, I got ripped apart for making a call like that in camp. So I agree with you on this totally.

Peace

Well, I seem to be in the minority here so I'm going to discuss this with all the officials I work with around here and talk with the varsity guys in between games. See what the prevailing opinion is in these parts.

I did this with the '3 second' thingy after reading and participating in that thread last week. 'All' of the varsity guys I talked with about the 3 second violation agreed that this is something one most aviod calling if you can. Game manage it they said and gave me some pionters.

Which leads me to last night:

Had a sophmore boys game, conference rivals. Great game, I worked with a guy who's been doing this for 34 years but has retired from doing varsity.

Tie game with 8 secs left (home team was up by 9 before they went into a stall offense with 2 minutes to play) home team is inbounding the ball. They get it in and make a couple of passes and as time is running out A1 shot fakes and B1 doesn't bite, he stays on the ground with arms up. A1 trys a disperate shot, and throws himself into B1 but doesn't displace B1 (in fact there wasn't much contact, but it looked awkward), B1 deflects the ball and the buzzer goes off. I called nothing, it happened in my primary. Of course the home crowd and coach loved me for holding my whistle. hehe.

Anyway, home team losses in OT. In the locker room afterward my partner lets me have it for not calling the foul. I told him what I saw and why I didn't blow the whistle. He says he didn't see it but out of the corner of his eye but what he did see looked ugly. My response was that I've been told that just because it looked ugly doesn't mean it was a foul. The 3 varstiy guys who were there for the next game agreed with me, but they didn't see the play.

Even though we talked about it for a half hour after the game, I'm still not convinced he is right. During the game he made two calls on blocked shots that from my vantage point at trail looked like clean blocks, even though they looked bad, I didnt' see any contact between the players, just a very hard block of the ball.

Still learning, guess I always will be. :)

John

It sounds like you did good. Remember if a coach asks you say the defence did nothing wrong and the offence caused all the contact.

Many coaches will say "So What" because the do not understand the rights of the players which are basically if not the same. Who is responsible for contact is the issue.

The offensive player cannot do what he or she likes and expect a call.

We do not referee "UGLY". We referee "basketball"

Malcolm

You were right in your non-call. An experienced ref doesn't always equal a wise or correct ref. Sounds like he didn't feel like doing OT. No way I EVER reward a shooter for jumping into a vertical and stationary defender.

The guy lets you have it for not calling a foul that he didn't see? Sounds like the retirement thing could stand to spread a little deeper.

Like I said never reward bad defense by taking away the easy score,and NEVER EVER penalize good defense.It sounds like you held your whistle ,saw the play,and made the right decision.

Some officials tend to go out of their way to "protect" the shooter.That should mean seeing them return to the floor without illegal contact,but some will call ANY contact a foul on the defense.

Along those same lines,early in a game if you have a close
play for a block/charge,it is a charge.You want the defense to keep playing the right way,if you have a couple of close ones early that are blocking fouls they will stop playing with their feet and start slapping at the ball.

Along those same lines,early in a game if you have a close
play for a block/charge,it is a charge.You want the defense to keep playing the right way,if you have a couple of close ones early that are blocking fouls they will stop playing with their feet and start slapping at the ball.

[/B][/QUOTE]I completely disagree with that. Call every play on it's own merit. If it's a block, then the only call you should ever make is a block. It's not up to us to try and influence how the game should be played. Let the coaches worry about whether their players are playing defense properly or not. That's their job. It's not part of our job; it never has been part of our job and it never will be part of our job!

I want to be a top official.... I want to have good judgment.... I want feed back from observers about my judgment and that is sometimes difficult to get. I've asked numerous varsity observers about my judgment in a game they just witnessed part of.... they say that they never question a call and instead will nit pick mechanics.
They say my mechanics are sound and my presence strong and my demeanor is calm. Things like "move your feet, not your eyes" when getting the ball and setting up for a throw in. OK, thanks, I'm coachable so now help me hone my judgment.

I'll keep reading this forum and be self-correcting.

Like the other night I had A1 receive a throw in BC. He chopped is feet just a bit prior to starting his dribble. He was under pressure and I whistle a travel. Had he not been under defensive pressure I would of had nothing...Good judgment or inconsistent?

Ballen,

This is a tough one. Forget about that travel call for purposes of this forum. You'll get all kinds of answers. Find some varsity refs that are working high level games (at your state tourney and such), Ak your area assignor next year to have this crew follow your freshman and JV games. The key here is find a crew that is willing to work with your development. Its hard for a varsity official to show up at halftime of your JV game and make comments about your judgement.

Example: You pass on a call that you normally would not because your partner passed on it earlier in the game for the other team. Varsity officials only see the second pass and tell you (because you have asked them beforehand to watch your judgement) that you should not have passed. Well, you knew that. If you try to explain this then it could look like you don't take feedback well.

The best way to get good feedback on judgement is to pick some mentors whose judgement you do like (and is respected by others) and have them watch a whole game.

Good luck.

[
[/B][/QUOTE]I completely disagree with that. Call every play on it's own merit. If it's a block, then the only call you should ever make is a block. It's not up to us to try and influence how the game should be played. Let the coaches worry about whether their players are playing defense properly or not. That's their job. It's not part of our job; it never has been part of our job and it never will be part of our job! [/B][/QUOTE]


I'm so confussed! You'll let a slap on the arm go becouse it "could" be a bucket and we are going to wait and see if it goes in? So it should'nt be a charge unless the bucket goes in too. I do agree, it's not our job to whether the defence is playing properly but by not calling fouls when contact is made (whether the bucket is made or not) you have just taken on the job responsability.

Maybe there is a reason he "retired" from varsity basketball :D

I completely disagree with that. Call every play on it's own merit. If it's a block, then the only call you should ever make is a block. It's not up to us to try and influence how the game should be played. Let the coaches worry about whether their players are playing defense properly or not. That's their job. It's not part of our job; it never has been part of our job and it never will be part of our job! [/B][/QUOTE]

I said,"CLOSE," as in it could go either way.It is entirely are job to influence how the game is played,that is WHY they have officials.

We influence how it is played EVERY time we blow our whistle.If we call hand checking early they stop hand checking.If we call the knee in the butt and the offense backing out the defense early,we have cleaner post play.
But I guess,you don't think that those calls influence the game,either.

blindzebra, perhaps you should have prefaced your comments with "If I have a block/charge and don't know what to call, I'm likely going to call a charge....." It's a little dangerous to just say "If it's close, I'll call it this way." It's either one way or the other.

Having said that, when we miss the play and must come up with a call...... :)

Actually I did preface it.If you look at the original post
I was talking about an official giving more consideration
to the offense and penalizing good defense.I started the paragraph in contention with,"Along those same lines."

I'm not saying I'll call an obvious block a charge,I'm talking bang-bang,nobody will argue either way you call it,
block/charge.Under those conditions I'm promoting good defense.I've watched too many games where a charge could/should have been called early,but was not,and it turned into a foul fest.

I completely disagree with that. Call every play on it's own merit. If it's a block, then the only call you should ever make is a block. It's not up to us to try and influence how the game should be played. Let the coaches worry about whether their players are playing defense properly or not. That's their job. It's not part of our job; it never has been part of our job and it never will be part of our job! [/B][/QUOTE]


I'm so confussed! You'll let a slap on the arm go becouse it "could" be a bucket and we are going to wait and see if it goes in? So it should'nt be a charge unless the bucket goes in too.
[/B][/QUOTE]I agree. You are confused. :D I never said anything anywhere in this thread about letting a slap on the arm go on a shot. Are you confusing me with another poster perhaps? :confused:

Re: All slaps are not created equal.
 

Help me here, so if a player is shoved to the floor AWAY from the ball and does'nt affect the lay up in progress, no foul? I dont think so. Back to the original... the pass is not affected by the slap on the arm (hand is part of the ball, if ball is in hand) so you do not call a foul. So player goes up for a lay up and ball goes in, player while still air born gets clocked as player b tries to block shot. No foul, the contact didnt affect the path of the ball, right. I dont think so !

And yes JR had you confused with another SORRY !

READ MY POSTS. Do not read into them with your own philsophy.
 

That is not what I said. Stick to the original conversation. Not only is that a foul, that is probably and Intentional Foul and they are going to shot two and get the ball back. That is not what we are talking about.

Again, you really need to read MY posts. I have never said a foul call is affected by whether the shot goes in. But if the shooter is affected in his follow-thru or has to alter his shot because of the contact of the defender, I am calling a foul. And I do not think I even made a comment about a shot. But contact, just because there is contact is never a foul in my book. The severity of the contact is not a factor either. You could have very slight contact on an arm on a pass or shot and you have a foul if that contact affects the shot or pass. Whether the ball goes in the hoop for me is not a factor. It might help in my decision, but it is not the determining factor. Because if I feel a player was fouled, I have probably blown the whistle before the shot is completed.

Peace

Re: Re: All slaps are not created equal.
 

You seem to be missing the point.If a player is shoved to the floor you have an intentional or flagrant foul,and that has NOTHING to do with advantage/disadvantage.

Read 4-19-1:
A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live,which HINDERS an opponent from performing NORMAL offensive or defensive movements.I read that to mean that it may be illegal contact,BUT if it does not keep the offended player from normal play it is incidental contact and is not a foul.

By that standard if a player gets slapped prior to shooting or passing we SHOULD wait to see if they can complete a normal play.

As for,"Getting clocked after the ball goes in and before they return to the floor," that depends on if the defense
did something illegal to cause contact,if they did you have a foul.

The thing with advantage/disadvantage is that it doesn't just include the result of the play (completed pass), but also includes the positioning of the players. If A1 gets tripped by B1 while making a pass to a wide open A2, and A1 hits the floor, I've got a foul. However, if B1 just slaps his arm and the pass gets through *and* A1 is not displaced or put at any other disadvantage; there is no foul.

I've seen plenty of players get bumped with the lower body
getting past the defender that will lay out to get the pass off,so I'm not sure you can say that that contact put them at a disadvantage if they dove past the contact and hit the floor.

Now if you are talking about an intentional raising of the foot to trip the player,I can see an intentional or flagrant foul in that case.

Here's the problem I see with some of the logic expressed with A/D, and our simple case of the slap on the arm. Lets say both teams are in the 1-and-1. My star player passes to a teammate, and as he makes the pass, is slapped on the arm by the opponent's star player, who happens to have two fouls. The pass is completed successfully, but I, being the quiet and respectfully inquisitive coach I am, scream, "he was fouled!". As you run by, you tell me, "no advantage coach...by the way, sit down".

On the other end of the floor, the opposition makes a similar pass attempt. (You can see where I'm headed, can't you.) Our star player, who also has two fouls, makes a similarly poor defensive move, and slaps his man on the arm. But, because 1) his man isn't as strong, 2) his man isn't as good of a passer, or 3) no one makes a supreme effort to save the ball, we get the ball. Or, we think we do, until you call a 3rd foul on my star player. Same contact on both ends of the floor, different call by the ref. You call it A/D. I call it inconsistent. My star player, as he comes to sit on the bench for the remainder of the half, is confused. Fans go nuts.

I don't have a problem with judgment, as long as its consistently applied.

Coach, I'd like your opinion on this question. It's an honest question (honest :) ), and I'd just like to hear a coach's perspective.

In the scenario you outline, which would you really rather have after your player gets slapped? Would you rather have an easy lay-up, or the third foul on your opponent that gets you a 1-and-1?

Now change it slightly so that it's not the "star player" on either end of the floor. In that case, which one of the above choices would you rather have? 3rd foul on a scrub and a 1-and-1; or the easy lay-up?

Again, honest question. What are your thoughts? I'd be interested in other coaches' comments too.

It WAS consistent.The same contact is not an issue,the RESULT of the contact is,the contact by your player HINDERED the opponent from normal offensive movement.4-19-1
of the rule book.

Why is it that coaches always take an apples to oranges
approach to consistency?Inconsistent application of advantage/disadvantage would have been no call-basket,no-call-steal,both going in your teams favor in your situation.

Judgement is being consistently applied. In the first case the pass was completed so we play on. In the second case the pass was not completed due to illegal contact so we have a foul.

Now let's switch things around a bit. Your star player has 4 fouls and slaps an arm during an otherwise successful pass. You're going to be happy if we have a foul now?

Or let's say we use A/D and let this go. Your star is still in the game - you're happy, right? Now you have the ball, there's a slap on the arm & to be consistent we let that go too...and you're happy as your opponent picks up the ball & goes in for an easy layup. Right? I mean, we are being consistent.

For me, I have this "thing" about fairness. As long as its fair (or I perceive it as fair), and I truly mean fair, as opposed to "fair for me", I'm okay with it. If the reffing team is calling/not calling arm slaps the entire game, I can live with it. The thing is, if you're calling the slaps fouls on both ends, regardless of the outcome of the shot or pass, then I don't get mad at you for calling the foul on my star player. I get mad at my star player for being such an idiot when I just told him to play smart since he had four fouls.

But, if you're using a/d as has generally been described, and you don't call a foul, I don't think, "Boy, that official is smart. He knows how to use a/d wisely." I think, "Whew. Got away with one there." Then I yell at my star player anyway.

And, to answer Chuck's question...sort of...I'll lean on the wisdom of Dick Divenzio, who was one of the most basketball savvy people to grace God's green earth. He hated the comment, "smart foul". Because, as he said, few fouls are smart. Fouls make a coach alter his game plan, and ultimately give the opponent a scoring advantage. With enough fouls, the opponent doesn't even have to shoot the ball to get an opportunity to score. So, would I want the easy lay-up or the foul called? I think I would lean toward the foul. Because, even if the situation isn't a 1-and-1, I still have the ball.

Then we agree (except for the "I perceive it as fair" part of course).

Where's the problem again?

The rule book is about like the Bible, Two people read it you get two different ideas about the meanning of what is being said or ment . Rut can probable quote rules like a preacher does scripture. And as for my last few postings on the A/D subject, yes they are a little over the top. But I would have to say the problem I see with this whole A/D thing is the ability to stay consistant! Every coach I've talked to wants that most out of an crew of officials. We all have different styles about how we will call a game. Some will call it tight, some will "let them play". My problem is (and its my problem) if its a foul, its a foul. Again unless it was unintentional. The gray areas of this is what makes us all different in or style of reffing a game.

I guess I will never understand your point of view.
 

Why would A/D keep anyone from calling the game consistently? I am not understanding why contact that does not affect the play would be a problem? I agree that there might be people that take any philosophy too far, but what does that have to do with calling the game correctly? Maybe it is me, but if you do not use some of this philosophy where I live, you are not going to go very far. Because basketball is a contact sport and we have to decide what contact is going to be called and what is not. No different in football when I have to decide if that hold affected the play or that action is what it seems at my first glance.

Peace

I think if the word "incidental" was used when we say contact then, yes I to agree with most of what you are saying.

Basketball was never ment to be a contact sport. We can thank the NBA over the last 20 years for that!

Basketball IS a contact sport. Has nothing to do with the NBA.

Golf is a noncontact sport.

Golf is a sport?

:lol:

Unfortunately for me golf is too often a noncontact sport. Or, the contact is incidental. And, let me tell you, the result is foul!

If basketball was never meant to be a contact sport, and contact would be an ejection. They give you 5 fouls for a reason. And "Incidental Contact" is directly explained in the rules. Baseball can be a contact sport. Baseball allows contact under all kind of situations. Where did you get that philosophy?

Peace

They give you 5 fouls hoping you"ll pull your head out of your a$$ and quit making contact. If not bye bye. Look at some OLD video on the game, contact is minimal! Also contact happens when you have a player trying to attempt a move beound his/hers abilities. Sloppy defence comes to mind.

Who said anything about baseball??? Never seen a ump with a whistle yet.

If there was not contact allowed at all, there would not be a section in the rulebook that talks about incidental contact and there would not be a rule all dedicated to contact and what is and what is not a foul. And who cares about the old videos, you cannot tell half the time what foul they had. Referees are officiating in the lane. The mechanics are not reconizable. So to use the old game as a barometer for todays game. These players today lift weights, they play much more than they ever did. I am not that old and I never had the opportunity to play the AAU and traveling teams the way these kids do today. Not just the boys, but the girls as well.

My comments were not because you stated anything about baseball. My comments are to illustrate that many sports outside of basketball allow for contact to take place. If this was golf, there would be nothing in the game that allows contact or has contact apart of the game.

At the end of the day, call what you feel is best. But do not be surprised if and when you call all contact or slight contact as a foul, do not be surprised if you are held back or do not achieve the things you want to in officiating. Not saying that is automatically going to happen, but you will not win friends at camps and with evaluators by just calling contact a foul that does not affect the play. Call it A/D or not, but you will be expected to use some judgment in determining whether contact warrants a foul. And this is not different than any other sport I officiate. There are mores that apply to all sports, if you want to be accepted or keep officiating.

Peace

I have no trouble being accepted. I get all the games I want (6 a week is enough if you want to stay married) and I have no asperations of doing anything higher than high school ball. I get personal satisfaction reffing them from 6th to v-ball and wounder what happened to those years! As far as being held back, I once had to go to summer school in the third grade! In three more weeks she'll all be over for this year (untill summer ball of course).

Rut, it would be nice for once if you would take a little time to see the other persons view without clouding your thoughts with the typical rhetoric.

Not wanting to take sides here, but I went to my first college camp last summer after my 16th year of working basketball. I noticed that most of the "corrective" feedback made by clinicians involved calls that WERE made. Very few comments were made on non-calls.

Rut is right -- working up means knowing when to keep the air out of the whistle. But if what you do works in your neck of the woods and you don't aspire to make the "big time," whatever that is, keep on keeping on. And I'm not trying to sound like a big dog -- I'm only a HS official in basketball myself and it's more than enough for me at this time in my life.


--Rich

Not wanting to take sides here, but I went to my first college camp last summer after my 16th year of working basketball. I noticed that most of the "corrective" feedback made by clinicians involved calls that WERE made. Very few comments were made on non-calls.


--Rich [/B][/QUOTE]

And thats why basketball IS a contact sport!

THANK YOU

Not my job to agree with you.
 

I mostly do HS, so I am referring to HS ball mostly. I do did not even reference college, but the same applies there as well. But to suggest that basketball is not a contact sport is rather asinine. I am sorry, but that is the way I see it.

It would be realistic if you realized that my comments do not have to agree with you on any level. I think your way of looking at this is rather silly and stupid in the bigger picture. Because not only does the rulebook make this very clear that all contact is not a foul, that there is not single reference to a "foul is just a foul" wording. Now since you wanted to have this debate, we were having it and yes it is my point of view that I agree with. There is no law that suggests I must go along with your rhetoric that claims "basketball is not a contact sport," even though it is very clear in all the literature of the rules makers that it is. Especially when they say in 4-27-1 says directly, <b>"The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur."</b> I am sorry if that does not fly with your comments, but at least my comments are backed in rulebook language.

If it works for you do that, but I would never suggest any official take the attitude and expect to prosper in officiating. And yes, most officials I know want to do other things than JH and rec. games their entire careers. At last the hundreds officials I meet on a regular basis.

Have a great day. ;)

Peace

I NEVER said basketball wasnt a contact sport. I said basketball was not MENT to be a contact sport. When I think of contact I think of hockey, football, even auto racing!

You on the other hand keep bounding that b-ball is a contact sport and that the rules allow for it. Thats only becouse that how you read the rules. Yes I know there is contact in basketball and it is my job to determine if it warrents a foul or not.

As far as JH or rec ball I enjoy those too. Gives me games to do between all the V-games.

And I guess that anyone who doesnt agree with you is silly and stupid, what a simple mind you have not to except someone elses views or oppinions!!

Good for you! You said what you MENT, and MENT what you said!

Well

Can I say that there are some referees who will never change but if a player who has potential is in a system where every touch is called a foul then when that player advances to the stronger competition he or she will not be able to handle the bumps and hits that are not called at that higher level. They will start mouthing off at the officials who are doing exactly what the competition requires and if they (the player)cannot adjust a promising career could be over.

There are no referees at any level that can say "I do not need to get better at this job".

My opinions and views have been called stupid by many. And I am sure to many the would be. Espeically when you are not from where I am. And I still go right back to what I do. And yes, I think your opinion on this is stupid on this. Especially when you use football and auto racing in the same sentence to back your argument. I would call football a collision sport, but I would not call auto racing a collision sport. It is a motor sport, and the contact is not person to person. It is vehicle to vehicle.

I have a game to go to, have a nice evening.

Peace

I agree.

Hope everyone ( and yes you too Rut) have a good night!!

We just agree to disagree, doesnt mean I dont like or disrespect you!

As I was once told by our state evaluator, "Football and hockey are collision sports, basketball is a contact sport"

If you like me or not that is your problem. ;)

Peace

I love how the anonymity allows some people to lose manners.

Why'd ya say that?
 

Not true, Footsie! Some of us are @$$e$ all the time!
:p

And!
 

The way some people play golf would be considered to warrant an unsportmanlike and ejection!

mplagrow, I stand corrected. (but you jerks will never find out my real name!:D

This subject went from A/D to....

a$$/no a$$ or know it all a$$.