Something similar happened in my game last night and it begged this question:

If player A has the ball and is driving toward the hoop and the defensive player B is standing completely still.

Here is the catch. Player B has his back to player A and has never established legal guarding position. Is it a charge because B has his right to a space on the floor? Is it a block because B never had legal guarding position?

I don’t have my rule book with me so if someone could quote rules that would be great.

You answered your own question. B never had LGP so there can't be a player control foul. If however you deem A's contact with B to be intentional or flagrant you could have an intentional, but I would caution against that, unless everyone in the gym can see it that way...tough situation.

I'm gonna disagree with Chad here. Establishing LGP is relevant only if the defender then moves. If you have LGP, then you can move in certain ways and still not be responsible for contact.

However, every player on the floor has a right to the spot that s/he's standing on, providing s/he got there first. (I think this is not true in the NBA, but that's another story.)

In the original play, if the defensive player were displaced or knocked down, I would have no problem with a PC call.

Chuck, thanks for shedding a little light there. I guess it was rule book lock I had on or something...LOL I have always thought that it was kind of unfair for a defender standing in the key expecting a shot to go up, who gets hit in the back, be charged with a foul.... I don't know why I didn't put the moving thing and LGP together...I can sleep much easier now LOL just glad I never had to call it on the poor kid LOL

This call has nothing to do with moving after legal gaurding position was established. Only thing to consider is can a player without legal gauring postition still take a charge (PCF)?

Footlocker, are you saying A1 dribbled right into B1 on his drive or he went up for a layup or dunk & plowed into B1 in the process?

Chuck I believe that you maybe wrong about this under NCAA Men's rules, I do not know about Federation. Rule 4 Sec 33 (Guarding) Article 6(b) pg 73 states there are 4 criteria to establish LGP on the ballhandler. Criteria (B) states the defenders torso must "face" the ball handler.

Here is a link to the rule book if someone wants to look at it. http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf

Defending someone without the ball is different. That is how I read this. Though I have been wrong before.

LGP and a dribbler just plowing into a defender are completely different situations, as Chuck pointed out.

NFHS rule 10-6-2- <i>"a dribbler shall not charge into or contact an opponent in his/her path..."</i>. There's no mention of LGP being needed. As Chuck stated before, LGP only comes into play if the defender moves from the spot that he/she has legally obtained.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 11th, 2004 at 10:21 AM]

Thanks. I see the difference now.

The problem in the thinking here is in the title of the thread -- "Block/Charge". The play where a player from the B team has his back to the dribbler is not a block/charge situation. The phrase "block/charge" only refers to plays where a guarding B team player and an A team dribbler have enough contact to necessitate a foul call. In the situation described above, the block/charge rules don't apply. What Chuck said fits in better with the overall rules. And then there's someting in the rule book, I think, about the player who is behind the other one being responsible for contact.

Can't agree with that, Juulie.

Rule4-7-1- "Blocking is illegal personal contact which impedes the progress of an opponent with or without the ball".

Rule 4-7-2- "Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent's torso".

The play above meets those definitions, imo. In R4-7-2(d), it doesn't say that the opponent's torso has to be facing the dribbler.

He went up for a lay up and plowed into the back of a defender.

NFHS rule 10-6-2- <i>"a dribbler shall not charge into or contact an opponent in his/her path..."</i>. There's no mention of LGP being needed. As Chuck stated before, LGP only comes into play if the defender moves from the spot that he/she has legally obtained.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 11th, 2004 at 10:21 AM] [/QUOTE]

Jurassic, I like this post.

Am I understanding that by this rule: if a dribbler does charge into or contact an opponent in his/her path the foul would always be on the dribbler? What about a moving opponent facing the dribbler that never established LGP? Certainly that rule does not indicate that the contact shall be interpreted as a charge.

I can live with player control even though defender B never established LGP. But want to make sure I got it right and by into it.

Understand, Player A did not go looking for contact here. Player B intentionally stood in the path of A but chose not to face him.