Team A inbounds the ball, advances into their frontcourt, works the ball, runs a play, shoots the ball, rebounds their own shot, runs another play, works the ball, ball goes out-of-bounds.

Timer beckons Officials to report he forgot to start the game clock.

I believe the rule says that obvious timing errors - like failure to start game clock - can be corrected only when the official has "definite information relative to the time involved."

What ought to be done in the situation described here?
Also, is this situation called a "correctable error" or is their better terminology to describe it.

Thanks.

This is not considered a correctable error. By definition, a correctable error is a mistake (there are 5 situations) made by the officials. In the case you describe the error is made by the timer. Mistakes by the table can be corrected at any time when they are discovered. In this case you could not correct the error because the officials would not have definite knowledge of the amount of time that had passed without the clock running. You would make sure that the clock is properly started with the next inbound play and continue from the point of interruption.

Just so I can understand this better, can someone provide an example of a situation that would actually involve "definite information relative to the time involved" and would therefore justify the Ref running time off the game clock?

'02-'03 Case Book pg.41 Rule 5.10.1 B

A1 travels immediately after the official sounds the whistle and signals the clock to stop, s/he glances at the clock and notices there are three seconds remaining in the quarter. However, the timer does not stop the clock and time expires. Ruling. The referee will direct that three seconds be put back on the clock since s/he had definite knowledge of the amount of time involved.

To take time off the clock, see 5.10.1 C

There is no provision for the correction (of time) of an error made in the officials accuracy in counting seconds.

[Edited by thumpferee on Feb 7th, 2004 at 12:34 PM]

A1 inbounds the ball in the back court, T-official is counting the 10 sec. back court, after he reaches the count of 5, he sees the clock didn't start. Beep, run 5 sec. off the clock, and give the ball back to team A at the nearest spot oob when you blow the whistle.

Also...could you take time off the clock if you had some closely guarded counts on in the frontcourt?

Thanks for the examples of 'definite information'.

I guess my point here is that in the original situation I cited, the Refs were just estimating how much time to take off the clock - I think it was 30 or 40 seconds - and since member "firedoc" says it shouldn't have been done and since no one has disagreed....

the Refs messed up this one.

Well, it happens. Do you know they were estimating? Definite knowledge could include a few 5 seconds counts, a couple of backcourt counts, and maybe (MAYBE) even add about 5 seconds or so because you know definitely that there were AT LEAST 5 seconds elapsed that weren't accounted for with manual counts.
Either way, this is one of those mistakes that only an assignor or evaluator will care about.

Adam

"Either way, this is one of those mistakes that only an assignor or evaluator will care about."

The other party that may "care about" this mistake is the team that was behind.....and catching up fast. With only a couple minutes left in the game....the Refs CHANGED THE CLOCK by 30 or 40 seconds...with no definite information to base it on.

I think you took Snaqwells' quote out of context. I assumed he was saying throughout the game, seconds are lost. In counting seconds without a stopwatch, which we attempt to do on almost every play, seconds can be lost. Not only by the officials count, but by the timers sec or so of delay by the time the whistle sounds and the clock is stopped. So every time the whistle is blown, there is 1-2-3 seconds lost. This is by no means a science! It's a game! And, we all do out best,right?

I appreciate your responses, and yes, the Refs certainly did their best. They did a very good job overall, no doubt.

But they were definitely estimating the amount of time to run off the clock in this situation, and - according to the responses I have received here - that is not allowed by rule.

I just hope they ask some more experienced Refs in their association about that situation and learn from it.

I know I have!