Situation: Player A is fouled, and Team A is in the double bonus. After foul is called, Player A and Player B, face off and start to "mouth" to one another, a double technical is called. Player A goes to the line to shot his double bonus foul shots. After first shot is made, horn blows and the scorer informs the referee that the technical foul on Player A, was his fifth foul. So you now see the situation that we have found ourselves in. Player A has already shot and made one free throw, he is entitled to a second attempt, but he is now a "disqualified player"...What should happen from here?? Do you let Player A shot his second shot and then replace him, or do you count his first one, since he or the officials didnt know he had fouled out, and make his sub shoot foul shot two? or do you remove the first fould shot and make Player A's sub shoot both free throws? I can not find this situation in any "Case Book"..Please give me your opinion and where in the rule book is this covered.

I do not have my rule book with me but I think that since the free throws are awarded in the order that the fouls occurred, that player A would shoot the free throws. His substitute would come in after the last throw for the alternating arrow possession for the double-T.

Error?
 

Perhaps we have a correctable error?

Sub to shoot final freethrow
 

A player is disqualified when the official notifies the coach and then the player. A replacement is brought in within the 30 sec time frame and the replacement would shoot the second free throw and you would count the first free throw if made. If no sub is available any team member on the floor may shoot the final freethrow.

Re: Error?
 

Good point!

See Rule 2-10 Correctable Errors
Unmerited free throw.
Before next live ball mind you.

It is not an unmerited free throw or a correctable error. Player A was still a legal player when he shot the first foul shot because he had not been disqualified yet. The free throw counts and his sub will shoot the second free throw.

This one has my vote!

error
 

We disreguard the error of substituion and then call it a merited freethrow? Opinion or fact?

What free throws are correctable?
 

I also thought that free throws by the wrong player were corredtable errors?

Re: What free throws are correctable?
 

As stated above...

Did player A have 5 personal fouls - Yes

Is he a disqualified player - No

The table officials did not notify the court officals of the disqualification, hence the court officials did not notify the coach and player, hence the player is not a disqualified player, hence the wrong player did not shoot a frew throw, hence no unmerited free throw was taken, hence no correctable error.

Re: error
 

There is no "error of substitution". The officials on the floor properly let A1 shoot his first FT because they were not yet informed by the officials at the table that A1 had 5 fouls. Once informed A1's sub gets the second FT and we finish the game.

Re: What free throws are correctable?
 

They are.

But this wasn't FTs by the wrong player.

Look, if A1 gets the 5th foul, but the table doesn't let us know for a few minutes, during which A1 gets a steal, socres a basket, commits a TO, we don't go back and "undo" all of that -- it's not correctable. The FT situation is no different.

In fact, even if the table does let the officials know, and the officials decide to let A1 shoot before s/he goes to the bench (since the ball will be dead after the last shot anyway), it's not correctable. It's a "substitution error" (yes, I made that term up), not FTs by the wrong shooter. The FED had a specific interp on this a few years ago.

Which?
 

Did the right player shoot the free throw or the wrong player?

Undo all that!
 

I agree that we don't undo all that because that is not correctable.

My $0.02
 

An unmeritted free-throw is one that should not have been given. The A player was fouled while his team was in the double bonus. Therefore the free-throws are meritted.

Also, the A player is the correct player to shoot the free-throws. He is not officially disqualified until the coach is notified. Since the officials were not notified until after the first free-throw, that was the earliest moment that they could notify the coach.

This is not a correctable error situation. A's free-throw stands. Have A's sub shoot the second free throw.

And?
 

Correctable errors are correctable until the first dead ball following the first live ball and this meets the criteria. The rule is designed to prevent the wrong person from shooting a free throw and the wrong person shot the free throw. It seems that the intent of the rule is there but... Or the right wrong person shot the free throw? Bench personal are so important to good officiating. I always dread it when I hear the horn go off and the bench signals me or my partner to come over because something has happened and now we have to be an attorney instead of an official and figure out what is wrong and in most cases the rules will not allow for a fix even though obvious mistakes have been made. Bench personal can make or break a good game. Thanks for the discussion and until someone can show me a case or ruling I am not entirely convinced.

Re: Re: What free throws are correctable?
 

Bob, do you think the fed has since changed the interp or do you think it would still stand. I see your "substitution error situation" as correctable. When the officials were notified, then allowed the player to shoot..... nope you are right, it would only be correctable if they notified the coach...if they kept it to themselves it would be wrong but not a correctable error.....wow...

Re: And?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DJ
[B]Correctable errors are correctable until the first dead ball following the first live ball and this meets the criteria.


You're close on your definition of a correctable error but you're not quite right. Errors are correctable if recognized by an official DURING the first dead ball, not UNTIL the first dead ball. Also, it is the first dead ball AFTER THE CLOCK HAS BEEN PROPERLY STARTED,not the first dead ball FOLLOWING THE FIRST LIVE BALL. The ball actually becomes live when it is at the disposal of the free thrower but the clock does not run during the free throws for this situation.

Mine too.

I'm stickin with my guns here!

'02-'03 Rules Book
See Rule 2-10 Correctable Errors
Unmerited free throw.
Before next live ball mind you.

Case book 2.10.1.A No difference IMO

Drop those guns buddy.

2.10.1.A is not even remotely close, maybe you want 2.10.4 which refers to the wrong PLAYER shooting FTs. Before you get too excited realize that -

A PLAYER is one of 5 team members on the court.

A sub becomes a PLAYER when the sub legally enters the court.

A PLAYER becomes bench personel after his sub comes in or in the case of DQ when the coach is notified of the disqualification.

A1 was a PLAYER (as opposed to a playa ;) ) until the coach is informed of the DQ, and a sub becomes the PLAYER that takes his place.

See 2.8.4 for the mechanics of all this.

unusual situation
 

This is a great learning opportunity and some very good points have been made.

I base my decision on NFHS Rules Book 2-11-11 Note 2. "... player who has committed 5th foul continues because the scorer has failed to notify the official ... as soon as the scorer discovers the irregularity, the game horn shall be sounded after, or as soon as, the ball is in control of the offending team or is dead. The dq'd player must be removed immediately. Any points which may have been scored while such player was illegally in the game are counted. If other aspects of the error are correctable, the procedure to be followed is included among the duties of the officials."

The last sentence is the key in this ruling. Since the free thrower was awarded an unmerited FT as a dq'd player, the sub for Player A shoots the double bonus, and the initial FT is not credited.

Re: unusual situation
 

What about the second to the last sentence -- "Any points ... scored ... are counted."?

Re: unusual situation
 

You're missing the point...the player is NOT a dq'ed player until we inform the coach and the player - so the free throws were not unmerited...get the sub in to shoot the second shot and go from there. There is nothing to authorize you to take that point off the board.

2-11-11- Note 2 Last sentence.

No time has run off the clock. The player should have been dq'd prior to attempting the 1st FT. Since player A was incorrectly awarded an unmerited FT, and it was discovered prior to the next live ball for the 2nd FT, it must be disallowed. That being the case, it is a correctable error and the substitute throws by player A's substitute are to be given.

I think that some of us are treating this as if time has run since the foul, which is a different ruling altogether and would not be correctable.

Great discussion!

Actually some of us are treating this as if A1 is NOT dq'ed until we are told by the table A1 has 5 fouls and we then tell coach A that A1 has 5 fouls. At that point A1 is dq'ed. Prior to that point A1 has the right to play, since he's a playa.

This has nothing to do with 2-10.

the player has picked up foul #5, he doesn't have a right to play

Yes he does, because he's not DISQUALIFIED yet (the procedure for establishing disqualification has not yet taken place, he could have 10 FOULS and still would NOT be DQ'd and STILL be a LEGAL player until said dq procedure TAKES PLACE)


[Edited by eyezen on Feb 6th, 2004 at 05:33 PM]

OOPS! I said that already.

And if people had listened to you, this thread woulda been over already! :D

I'm in!

Think about it this way. If A1, after committing his 5th foul, but before the coach is notified, pops off to the official, it's a T on the player only; because he's still a legal player. He's not DQ'd until the coach is notified, so he's not getting an unmerited free throw. He's eligible to shoot until notified otherwise. Once the coach has been notified, then he can no longer play. You don't make them reshoot if he made it, and you don't let them reshoot if he missed it.

SECTION 14 DISQUALIFIED PLAYER
ART. 1 . . . A disqualified player is one who is barred from further participation in the game because of having committed his/her fifth foul (personal and technical), two technical fouls or a flagrant foul.
ART. 2 . . . A player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel when the coach is notified by an official.

Okay when is he dq'd....when he commits his/her fifth foul or when he is "officially disqualified" when the coach is notified.

Just fuel for the fire I guess.

FED Interps, 2000 - 2001, Supplement #1:

SITUATION 6: A1 is fouled and Tean A is in the bonus. Before A1 attempts the one-and-one, A1 is whistled for a technical foul for taunting. A1 goes to the free-throw lie to attempt the one-and-one with no players lined up. A1 makes the first free throw, then the horn sounds and the scorer indicates that A1's technical foul was the fifth foul on A1. RULING: The result of A1's first free throw shall stand and A1's replacement shall attempt the remaining free throw (if the first was successful), before Team B shoots its technical foul free throws. COMMENT: This is not a correctable error for a wrong player attemptign a free throw. A1 was not officially disqualified until the coach was notified. (3-3-3;4-14-2;2-8-3;2-10-1c)

I hope that ends the discussion on the play that started this thread.

Now for the other play that I mentioned -- where it's not a correctable error even if the player had to leave the game before the throws:


SITUATION 5: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting and is awarded two free throws. A1 is injured on the play and Team A's coach has been beckoned on the floor to attend to A1. Although by rule A1 should elave the game until the next legal opportunity to substitute, the officials make an error and permit A1 to complet the free throws before leaving. The opposing coach objects and insists that A1's substitute should have shot the free throws and a correctable error has occurred. RULING: The officials made an error by allowing A1 to remain in the game. This is not a correctable error for a wrong player attempting a free throw, even though A1 is required to leae the game by rule. (3-3-5;3-3-3)

Bob:

There is one thing that is missing forom the RULING in SITUATION 5, and that is that the NFHS made no mention of charging Team B with a timeout since there was no correctable error. Would you charge Team B with a timeout per rule?

MTD, Sr.

As I read the case, the official didn't "respond to a scorer's signal to grant the coach's request..." (see 5-8-4), so I'd be unlikely to charge the TO.

(I envision the coach, umm, "explaining" that the wrong player was at the line, and the official saying that it was okay. IF the coach want's a longer explanation, I'll ask him to take a To so we can discuss it.)