I thought this would be an interesting question to ask since I read a lot about how some coaches, fans and players don't respect officals. Why do memembers of this board feel this is? Or do some feel they get the respect they deserve and I am wrong in asking this question? Look forward to hearing your feedback on this topic.

Everyone's favorite

BBallCoach

I can't believe this.

I feel that the main reason we don't get respect is that coaches are uneducated about the rules. If i could count the number of coaches that call a timeout when their team has the ball in the backcourt and get mad that we don't move the ball up to the 28' line. Also, coaches don't seem to understand the advantage/disadvantage principle. They expect us to call every infraction committed against their team, while letting every infraction their team commits go.

BBallCoach, i'd like to see you put on the stripes and do a game, so you can see how difficult it is to officiate instead of b*tching about how we officiate games.

Very simple
 

It is the same reason people do not like cops or any other authority figure. These individuals can basically tell you what you can and cannot do. Most people do not like to be told what they can do. And when folks are involved and have a bias, it is hard to see beyond yourself and objectively look in the mirror.

Peace

WoW, I will assume you know how BBallCoach acts in a game.

As to respect, its hard for people to respect when they are clueless of Officiating and they think they know it all.

Actually i don't, but from what i've read in his posts, i think he should take a walk in our shoes.

And you've nailed it in the rest of your post.

I agree that the disrespect we get is similar to that police officers and other authority figures get. It's actually a proven psychological phenomena that people don't respect authority figures like they used to.

However, I sometimes wonder how many of us are related to Rodney Dangerfield and the lack of respect that comes with that!

Re: Very simple
 

Jeff, I share that exact same philosophy. Well put.

Must be nice to have this job
 

Wow based from the reports Ive read, officials and cops have the same amount of power. Very interesting. It must be nice to have a job where no one is allowed make constructive comments about the job you do. Because how dare someone disagree with your authority as the official. You know all and see all and your never ever wrong and of course you would never be out to get someone just to stick it to them. Oh wait you would be JRut addmitted that in another post. Ahh so you admit that you stick it to coaches for no reason and are vindictive, but at the sametime you expect respect. Hmmm somehow this does not make any sense but who knows maybe it's just me. I forgot that people pay money when they goto a basketball game to watch the officials. Or that in twenty years players will look back with fondness over there relationship and the lessons they learned from the officials that worked their game. Oh wait that is not true those would be the coaches they will look back with fond memories. Hmm, all of this talk about how tough it is to be an official. Well you could always be a cop you have the same authority lol

Another fine example of why officials deserve respect
 

was getting ready to officiate a game. I looked over and the two other officials were exchanging words and got into a fight. The coaches and myself went over and stopped it. i felt that we wouldn't be able to work together as a team, so i decided to postpone the game. is that the best thing to do?

Hmm I read about that everyday in the paper police officers getting into fights.

My sympathies
 

Sorry, Bballcoach, if a group of referees beat you up when you were a kid or something. I don't think you can lump all referees together any more than you can lump all policemen together. You know why? We are individual people. It seems that it may be difficult for you to comprehend, but some of us are actually just normal people inside the black&whites. I'm not worked up or defensive, thinking that the world is out to get me so I have to wield my authority in people's faces.

I enjoy basketball. I like working with kids. I believe that my presence on the court enhances their enjoyment of the game that we all love. I have the respect of the coaches who I ref regularly and they have mine. The minute it ceases to be fun, I'll quit reffing. Peace.

This Thread is the 1st I have read any post from BBallcoach. You sure told me a lot about yourself. Amoung other things, you are not a coach. You got me this time but, I will not ever reply to anything you have to say again.

This is why we don't get respect. You started this thread to start an argument. Maybe you need to do a game and get it taped and then have another official taped. Sit down and watch both tapes with that official and you will probably learn a lot.
Also, if we cared about respect we would all quit after the first year. It is very humbling to officiate a game and progress to a certain level of respect. I think coaches want us to respect and respond to every dumb or smart comment they make.
- Coaches are teachers. Their job is to teach and win. Playing by the rules doesn't factor in. They just want to score more points than their opponent. They know some of the rules. Some of them.
- Officials have to know the rules and use the rules as a tool to keep order in a basketball game. That hinders a coach from accomplishing his/her goal, winning. Coaches take it personally. We don't or we shouldn't.

[Edited by tomegun on Feb 6th, 2004 at 05:49 AM]

Officiating is humbling. And, the interesting thing is, the better we get, the more humbled we are about it. The better you get at anything, the more you realize you have to learn.

Re: Another fine example of why officials deserve respect
 

Coach, are you seriously trying to have a discussion? If so, there are a thousand better ways to go about it. You're abrasive approach is not getting anywhere.
I should have done this before, but I'm done with you until you make a cogent point. So far, all you've really done is take ignorance and idiocy to a brand new height.

aw

Do you expect people to look back at you with fondness?
 

Or that in twenty years players will look back with fondness over there relationship and the lessons they learned from the officials that worked their game. Oh wait that is not true those would be the coaches they will look back with fond memories.

Re: Do you expect people to look back at you with fondness?
 

What the hell are you talking about?

Re: Must be nice to have this job
 

Of course a cop and an official do not have the same authority. But in the real world you do certain things to a cop, it might cost you your life. Do things to an official, it might cost you a game or you might not be there to see the end. And since coaching is a job to some extent (or can be at the HS level), you conduct and how it is recieved can and will affect that job. I know schools that have fired coaches for their behavior toward officials.


I do not know of too many games in any of the sports I have done where I was not questioned. When that has happen, it is so rare you can usually point out the date and the time when it happen. So critisism comes with the territory and at least by me is accepted.


You just are a punk *** coach that is complaining that things do not go your way. Well if you want to really understand what we go thru, listen. Because we are the ones that determine a lot of what you can and cannot do. I guess that bothers you.


Coach I probably give fewer Ts than anyone on this board. I throw out fewer coaches in baseball than most. I have never thrown out a football coach in my entire career. I always listen to coaches at first. But there comes a time when what you say has little to no credibility. When coaches like yourself complain about three seconds when there are 20 shots and put backs, you lose my respect. And I do what makes coaches even more upset, just ignore you. I might give you a look and laugh a little, but I really do not give a damn about coaches that complain. ;)


They don't. But when I was playing, we did not talk to official. But then again, I seen players curse out their own coaches and you guys just let it happen. But then again, you seem more afraid of the parents than we are.


Here is the thing, I get paid whether you like me or not. I get paid if you think I am horse$h!t or not. And even when you ban me, I usually end up in a place you never would have thought I would be. You are right, no one comes to see us, but we are usually the most constant thing in the game. Coaches get fired and fans move on when their kids grow up or the team becomes horrible. Just get used to the fact that at the end of the day, we can tell you then show you how to behave.

Peace

Jrut
 

Ahh I see so being an official is a power trip for you. I get it now you like having the control and being important for the first time. Now it makes sense, your not there because you love the sport, or care about kids, your there because at the end of the day you can flex your powerful muscle and remove a coach that might have a legitimate complaint that you missed some calls. Oh wait sorry I'm being logical again, officials never miss calls, they never change the flow of a game, they never win or lose a game for a team, they never get disciplined because they do not make mistakes, hmmmmm at the end of the day they are the most constant thing in basketball. Ahhh now Im starting to learn. Thank you for your wisdom J Rut!!!!!!!

I actually feel I get the respect I deserve
 

I go to call the game. I am not there to win any friends. I can't make a fashion statement (double knit?). I don't thrive on positive feedback from coaches, players, or fans even though I often get it.

Respect is earned and it takes a long time to get it. This applies to any line of work, including coaching. I have learned to respect several coaches even though I don't particulary like them or their sytle. I their see players respond and perform extraordinary feats. I have also seen many very experienced officials that have not earned my respect and many that have.

Its not that I'm judgemental. It is just a comparison of my personality with theirs.

Wait a Minute!
 

BBallCoach

You are relatively new in this Official's Forum. As I read your first post of this thread, I was evaluating what types of information I could use in my reply to objectively satisfy your alleged quest.

As you are aware, ref18 quickly rebuked the legitimacy/sincerity of your question. The premise of his challenge was his interpretation of your posts in previous threads. I agree that he was presumptuous, but it afforded you the opportunity to prove whether you sincerely wanted to learn the dynamics of your original post or were chosing to use it as a platform to chide officials.

Bart Tyson even "checked" Ref18's post/attitude.

Unfortunately, you opted to go the low road and make this a "broadbrushed" stab at the officials. What does that say about YOUR representation of the coaching advocation? I would argue it is not a favorable one.

Fortunately for the majority of coaches, I am able to dismiss YOUR conduct as an individual act. I refuse to paint all coaches with a vindictive brush. I try my darndest to maintain an objective perspective at all times, I suggest you do the same. The game will be better for it.

Hopefully you have learned something positive from your negative actions (comments) in this thread.

I can see you are not going to win any titles soon.
 

Just goes to show why you are a coach. You are more worried about power. Because power has nothing to do with a game. Maybe to you it is, but at the end of the day, we are talking about just a game.


I can make a better point by keeping you in the game then dumping you. Whether you stay or not is up to you.

No, I do not win or lose a game for a team. I can send you to the line, but you have to make the shots. Most calls I make or any official makes are obvious. I do not throw the ball in the stands, I just call it when it happens. I do not tell you to take on the biggest player in the game when you are the smallest player on the floor. Just like the Duke/North Carolina game, it was not the officials that let Ewing go directly to the basket. It was not the officials that keeps you from boxing out and letting easy baskets. So if you feel free to blame us for all the problems that your team has, do that. But when you get fired, like many coaches, funny I never hear the officials as for that reason. At some point you have to take complete responsiblity for you job. I probably take ten times more responsibility for my mistakes than you ever will. Because I always recognize my mistakes on the floor and try to learn from those. When you keep that player in too long that has 4 fouls, I guess it is my fault he picks up the 5th.

Peace

Bball Coach...

You are a clown.

Go stir up trouble somewhere else.

Oh, come on!
 

Give me a break, Canucklehead! Why should he go stir up trouble somewhere else? I'm personally refreshed and challenged by his unique perspective. Not only that, I think he's pretty funny! :p

On the other hand, he seems pretty fixated with JR. How do you manage to attract them, Rut?

Re: Oh, come on!
 

People like for others to tell them what they want to hear. I tell it like it is. And most do not like that. Why we have athletes that act the way they do at the pro level. They are not used to being told what to do. ;)

Peace

Can't help you. Doesn't happen to me. :p

Re: Do you expect people to look back at you with fondness?
 

I've been doing this long enough where players that I officiated at 10-12 years old are now playing on the varsity in high school.We have built a relationship over those years,they know me and respect me,and I've had the pleasure of watching them grow as both players and as young
men and women.

Like most of the officials who post on this forum,I am proud to have been a part of that growth.

Re: Do you expect people to look back at you with fondness?
 

Many coaches do not know that I became a basketball official because of my H.S. basketball coach. He won 378 games against only 122 losses over 21 years, including 15 league championships (I played on two of them). My coach was very unusual in a very important aspect: He was an OhioHSAA registered basketball official and a charter member of the Trumbull County Basketball Officials Association (I have been a member since 1971) in 1948. In 32 years of officiating he is only one of five basketball coaches that I know were also basketball officials. When asked why he was a basketball official, he always said the you cannot teach the game if you do not know the rules. I graduated from Liberty H.S. in 1969 and I can tell everyone that the guarding/screening requirements are the same today as they were in the 1965-66 season, because every year we would spend an entire practice at the beginning of the season learning how to establish legal guarding positions and setting legal screens per the rule book. As a freshmen in H.S. I know what time and distance meant.

Most people in out community thought that of all of his players I would become a coach, because he was our next door neighbor and I lived basketball from the time I was nine years old, but I decided to study engineering in college and became a basketball official during my second year of college.

Re: Oh, come on!
 

Canucklehead? Them's fightin words!
http://www.btinternet.com/~tonyrichardson/punch.gif
Maybe we should ask Chuck and Tony about that :D

BBallcoach registered in January. His season is probably in the can and he has probably been T'd up a couple of times. He was looking for a fight from the start. He should probably look at other coaches for his answers instead of us. Coach you should know there are many type of coaches:

A-holes - loud and ignorant from the start
Jerks - start quietly and end up A-holes
Charmers
X and O guys with no communication skills
X and O guys that are also charmers - my favorite but a rare breed
Bully - my second favorite, puts me in "wish" mode

JRUT touched on an A-hole, a coach that yells "3 seconds" during 20 attempts at the same basket. That is just ignorant and a sign that the coach does not know the rules.

Re: Re: Oh, come on!
 

Maybe we should ask Chuck and Tony about that :D [/B][/QUOTE]

I just ignore the ******.

Let's turn the table...
 

Bballcoach,

What if every fan, parent, official etc. made non-stop comments about your coaching abilities, decision making skills, and play calling that you make in a game. How would you feel if you knew that you were bustin your *** out there to coach these kids and these comments were being made?

Officials don't go on to the floor looking to be bad asses or jerks. We just want to make sure that the game is played in a fair manner. Try playing a game against your teams biggest rival with no officials and let me know how it turns out....

There are many times in a game I would love to turn to a coach and say... "Aw come on coach, when is your team gonna stop turning over the ball" or "You better start playing man D" etc.... But I don't beacuse you are the coach and I am the official. I just want to do my job, improve my skills, learn a little something for next time and leave.

Why do you feel that just because your a coach your knowledge of the rules and how the game should be officiated are far superior to those that have dedicated a significant amount of time and effort to become officials? How do you know if an official "missed a call" or made a wrong call? Could you pass the 100 question test we take every year? I got a perfect score BTW.

It really sounds like your the one on a power trip and don't like having to listen to the officials.

By the way bballcoach... What is "over the back"??? As a coach I am sure you can define this because I can't find it anywhere. (get my point???)

Basketball is a very fast paced very emotional game. Officiating the game is very subjective; as is obvious from the thousands of threads and thousands of posts in this forum. If it was cut and dried there wouldn't be a need for boards such as this. Unfortunatley, coaches and fans tend to see things through one way glasses. When things are not going their way they get upset and eventually disrespectful. How often do you here a coach,or fan, complain about a "wrong" call against the other team.

Once the heat of battle is over the disrespect subsides. Many time I am ask by coaches and fans about rules, my opinions, etc... concerning the game of basketball. It's the heat of the moment and our competitive nature that leads to brief moments of disrespect by coaches, fans, and yes, we officials.

What part of that post shows that he is looking for a fight? Looks to me like he came in here to ask an honest question and get a discussion going. He even asked you guys if it was an alright question to ask.

The first post he gets in reply basically attacks him:

ref18: BBallCoach, i'd like to see you put on the stripes and do a game, so you can see how difficult it is to officiate instead of b*tching about how we officiate games.

Where in that post was he b*tching about calls?

Now I agree that after that he said some pretty stupid things, but i don't think it would have digressed to this point if his question would have been answered thoughtfully. Maybe it would have. I don't know BBallCoach so I can't make that assumption. You say that we shouldn't lump all referees together, then don't lump all coaches together either.

And by the way CMCKENNA, coaches aren't the only ones that call over the back, I've had more that one official this year make that exact call in a game, even making the frankenstein reach over on the signal.



[Edited by gsf23 on Feb 6th, 2004 at 09:17 AM]

Hey Coach,

Unbelievable! I can see right through you. You obviously have very little playing experience. Not one that has had a relationship with the game for very long. You see, people that have been around the game for some time understand and do respect our involvement in basketball. You must be one of these NBA watching-goof balls that thinks he can coach because he picked up a clipboard and a cork whistle from a sporting goods store. You may have passed yourself off as some guru to a school administrator but I don't think any player will ever fondly look back on his relationship with you. Why? You never taught him anything.

Your coaching is not about the players or teaching. It’s about you. And you are clearly so insecure about your abilities to teach the game that you spend game time on the officials backs to feign some knowledge of basketball. Oh, but be cautious, because when you open your mouth (like you have in the forum here) you noticeably expose your ignorance. That’s right. Parents, other coaches, scorekeepers, and players all realize when you speak nonsense. Even when you don’t. But you can’t just shut up. Because since your not teaching or coaching, if your not yelling at us, what would you do. It would be more plainly obvious you have no business on the sideline. Yeah, I know you. You may have anonymity on the board here but I know dozens of you. You all have something in common too. Your time coaching will be short lived.

Our local interpreter gave the coaches an old test. Let's just say the results weren't pretty.

Well, dang, I'm sorry this thread wasn't more legitimate, because in my rules education that really started a couple of years ago, I'll tell you why I think the disrespect exists:

1. Refs don't care about the outcome of the game, but fans do, especially when Junior or Juniorette is involved. Passion and bias ultimately lead to looking for scapegoats. Refs are easy targets.

2. As has been often mentioned, fans and coaches don't know the rules like refs. Basketball rules can be complex (e.g., over and back - dribbling vs. not dribbling) and, maybe, inconsistent (e.g., a travel by a person with the ball when the ball is live isn't a travel by the same person when throwing the ball in). As you know, fans don't read the rules, so don't understand the nuances.

3. Fans watch the ball. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a play on film, and realized I was wrong when I complained when I saw the play live because I was focused on the ball, and not was happening around the ball.

4. Judgment and perspective. Some refs call it tight, some don't. Some refs put up with a lot, some don't. A hand check up top isn't treated the same as a box out underneath.

Of course, you don't deserve the disrespect. As officials, your main recourse is to actively pursue opportunities to educate fans and coaches. Require mini-clinics before seasons start.

BBallCoach proved one thing. There are some coaches out there who sure know how to get on the officials' nerves. His first post wasn't personal in any way, and it wasn't directed at the members of this forum. He didn't even mention whether he shared the alledged lack of respect.

The first reply was already getting a little personal, Rut came in with a thoughtful response, but from then on for most of the rest of the thread, most of the posts got more and more personal and more and more stereotyping from both sides. And it was obvious that he was succeeding in baiting many responders.

My take is that BBallCoach's premise was faulty to begin with, but not entirely without merit. I think most coaches and players do respect the officials. There certainly are exceptions, and the exceptions get more and more common the higher up the basketball chain you go, but exceptions do not prove his premise. He may (from reading his subsequent postings) believe, and even be party to the premise, but that still doesn't make it so.

I do believe, however, that fans of youth games (pre HS) tend to believe anything that doesn't go their team's way is caused by officials who are unfair or incompetent. These are the parents who really don't know anything about the game to begin with, they just want to see their kid do well. In HS and college, the fans change over to being teenagers. How many groups of teenagers can possibly resist the opportunity to yell at authority figures with impunity? To them, it's just part of the event.

CYO, yours and many others basic premise is that BBallCoach is a coach. I don't believe he is a caoch. I think he is just some guy who doesn't like officials and this is a way he can get his jollies. Another word for this guy is Coward.

Darn, around my office I'm considered the most cynical guy, never taking anything at its face value. I have to come here to get shown up as a gullible neophyte :(. Of course, while I don't want to claim BBallCoach into the coaching assembly, I have known a few over the years who could be complete idiots. At one time my wife's best friend made her husband quit coaching (baseball) because it turned him into a total ***hole for 6 months of the year.

Fisherman!
 

I think that the guy that started this post must be a pretty domn good fisherman too because he threw out the bait and got us to bite the hook, line and sinker! Ouch!

Thats funny.

You all just got your 5th. Game over!

Go to the scorebook!

Hmmm...just one quick question: What makes BBallCoach - or anyone else - think we don't get respect???

BBallCoach

There are many types of coaches out there. From what I can tell, it seems that you are a divide and conquer type of coach. You attempt to divide referees against each other by thoughts such as this. Rather than repect our efforts and our determination to render fair and just judgements, you prefer to attempt to distract us by making comments that border on personal attacks. I can assure you that type of behavior would get you nowhere with most officials that I work with.

As far as the players remembering interactions that they have with officials, it is rare that a player will recall more than 1 instance because it was not a life changing event. The life changing events come from coaches that help them reach deep inside themselves to shape their lives, both positive and negative.

Who influenced you when you were playing? I would bet that a former coach influenced you enough to become a coach. Why did I become a ref?, because basketball is the greatest game ever and coaches like you who taught me the lessons in life the basketball can provide. I like that association with the game.

Best of luck the rest of the season.

gsf23, BballCoach's first post on this thread isn't that offensive, by itself. However, when taken in context of everything (I mean that literally) else he's posted, it smells awfully bad.
Look at his posts in such threads as "how to talk to officials."
Go to Google, do an advanced search for BBallCoach isolated to http://www.officialforum.com, and you'll see what I mean.

Adam

Way to show class icallfouls !

Well said Adam. I was gonna post something sooner, but school started back up, and i haven't been able to get access to a computer during the day.