Do you peek?

3-man high school game. I am lead table side, closed down to the lane line extended. Ball is nr. the FT line ext. Skip pass over to the wing to the 2 guard who chucks it. Slot is straightlined but indicates 3. It goes. Slot indicated good.

Here is what I did....tell me what you have done / recommend...In theory, this question could apply, maybe more so to 2-man.

I took a peek and saw the foot clearly on the line. I indicated 2 (two fingers extended pointing towards the floor). After it went, I killed it and made sure we only scored 2. Come to find out, T saw what I saw too and also hit his whistle when I did.

What do you old guys think....will the peeks get me in the soup? Is there a cure for the peeks? Was I ok?

Larks
VIT

You done good. The objective is to get it right.

Yer okay, ... except for the whistle.
On your way back down court tell the table that last shot was a <b>two</b>. Then tell your "slot" at the next opportunity.


Thanks, bigwhistle. ;)
mick






[Edited by mick on Feb 5th, 2004 at 10:47 AM]

mick,

I think you meant to say tell the table it was a "2". However, I disagree with not stopping the game immediately to fix the problem. If the official only goes by the table and tells them in transistion, the benches may not recognize the correction. This could cause a problem with differing scorebooks, etc. Also, they may then ask the official who signaled a "3" what the value of the goal was. If he was not aware that the correction was made, he may again respond that the basket was worth 3 points.

So, in order to nip all the potential confusion in the bud, sound the whistle and fix the problem. BTW, this is not a situation where the partners need to get together to discuss. If the over-ruling official was not at least 100% sure that the wrong value was scored, he should leave the play alone.

I agree that a whistle is important and not just changing on the fly. BigW I think that as L you should be the last person to blow on this. You are in close-down and I am not sure what type of post action you have but I think if you are patient you might find that T calls the foot of the line, like you said he hit the whistle when you did. If T passes and you are 100 % then blow it and get it right.

But I disagree with not meeting. If you are going to over rule, or change a partner's call I think it is important to talk to that person. It makes us look more like a team on the floor and it shows the coaches we are communicating. This meeting should only be A FEW SECONDS, because we know that if a partner is coming to us he is 100%, but the perception of the quick meeting makes a world of difference. The other way it looks like one ref knows better than the other and he is in control not the calling offical.

Having said all that, getting it right is most important and it sounds like one really had a problem. Just some thoughts for future situations.

Why on the fly?
 

If a partner is badly straight-lined and misses a three (ie. didn't see the three, so didn't mark the three), do you blow the whistle to tell the table that a three should be counted, while the opponents are rtushing the ball down court.?

I do it on the fly in both cases. No exception unless the table buzzes me. ;)

mick

Mick

Honestly do you it on the fly? I think that is a poor mechanic. I also think that you are really late in acting on the situation if you team B is charging up the court when you whistle the change. If my partner misses a 3 attempt I have a few seconds while the ball is in the air to decide if I need to change the call plus the dead ball time that it takes the new offensive team to take the ball out and put it back in play. This correction needs to be made before the ball is back in play and like I said on a 3 point attempt I think we have lots of time to do this.

As for the mechanic of just changing it on the fly, what if the coaches don't notice you doing it and start complaining that the score is wrong? What if I as your partner don't notice this and think the score has made a mistake? Both of these could lead to a stop in play and a conference.

This is a situation that should not occur very often, but when it does please give your partner the courtesy to talk to him/her and work as a team on the floor. It gives the perception of teamwork and not hierarchy in officals.

JMO.

Re: Why on the fly?
 

How do you do this if you're opposite the table?

I had a partner really reem me for this
 

I was in a similar situation. I was lead and was not closed down. The ball had just finished transition. Guard puts up a shot and I see that he is on the line. Trail signals a 3 and turns his back to run down the court. I try to get his attention to no avail. A defensive player is screaming it was only a 2. I waited until the next dead ball and told them it was a 2. It really gave it to me and told me it was not my call and kept it a 3. The same defensive player was close to getting a T, but I held up as I agreed with him.

<B>Originally posted by <I>mick</I>
Yer okay, ... except for the whistle.
On your way back down court tell the table that last shot was a three. Then tell your "slot" at the next opportunity.
</B>

Dewey1,
I do not whistle.
I do tell my partners.

Where did you get all that? :rolleyes:

I understand that you would rather fix it immediately eventhough you would bring attention to your partner's mistake, but I prefer to correct quietly.

mick

Re: Re: Why on the fly?
 

Then I remember the shooter's number and wait for next dead ball.

Re: I had a partner really reem me for this
 

Which is why you, and Mick, should hit the whistle right away and fix it.

This is part of my pregame...........Crack the whistle and fix it "IMMEDIATELY". That lets everyone in the gym know what's going on.

Wouldn't bother me at all if my partner fixed it.

The forum has spoken.
 

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-079.gif

mick ;)

Mick

Sorry about the confusion, I said whistle but meant to say signal. I understand that you do not whistle the play dead, which I think is a potential problem.

But I would disagree that you talk with your partner, in your situation you TELL your parnter what you did to his/her call. What I am talking about it is actually talking with and coming to an agreement about the call. Which once again leads to teamwork and not a hierarchy which is what I see when I read that you just change it and then tell your partner.

Dewey,
First, let us assume that the partner was wrong by not signaling, or by signaling incorrectly. (ie. Cuz we wouldn't change anything that was even remotely borderline ;) )

We blow the whistle, stop the ensuing play... now what?
<LI>We go to our partner and quietly tell 'im he screwed up and he changes his call?
<LI>We go to our partner and quietly tell 'im he screwed up and we change the call?
<LI>We go to our partner and quietly tell 'im he screwed up and he refuses to change his call?
<LI>We change the call and our partner sees us doing it and knows he screwed up?
<LI>We change the call and then we go to our partner and quietly tell 'im he screwed up... and he says what?

How, exactly, does that work? ;)
mick

[Edited by mick on Feb 5th, 2004 at 12:53 PM]

Curious, who is disadvantaged by killing it to get it right? B still gets it's run of the baseline.

In a fast moving game, with the shooter's defender down court all alone, B is disadvantaged.
In a deliberate game, with no pressing and no break away, there is no disadvantage... except to your stoopid partner. :cool:
mick

Mick

Option B is the closest. Though I never go to a partner to tell him/her that they SCREWED UP. I go to talk and work as a team. We pregame the situation and it looks good when we do it. It is not a negative situation like you seem to be making it sound with terms like screwed up. Communication is key when I work on the floor and changing a call is a time that we need to communicate not dictate.

Obviously you disagree with me. So I will leave it at this. I just believe that as a crew if you are going to change my call, talk to me so we all know what is going on.

Dewey1,
So, we go to our partner and quietly tell 'im he made a mistake and we change the call?

I do not necessarily disagree. (After all, the forum agrees with you.) I have kicked 'em before. And I can change.
I seek enlightenment of the exact mechanics.

Perhaps another similar suggestion will be forthcoming.:)
mick

Mick

The exact mechanics are sort of individual to each situation but if I was to textbook what I do this would be close. I whistle it dead go to my partner and ask what they saw. Most times if they have missed a clear call they say something like "I really didn't have a great look" or "I thought he/she was behind the line" something like that. I then say I clearly saw his toe on the line. Been as it was my partners call I like to have him/her change it rather than me. I think it looks better that way. Similar to when a partner misses a tip OB and calls it the wrong way. I use the same procedure. Whistle, huddle, share info and let partner change call. This way we are all in agreement all on the same page.

You do run into the odd time when a partner refuses to change his call (but this is extremely rare in my experience). In those cases I live with my partner making the call and talk about it in post game. But like I said this is extermly rate.

Hope that helps.

FWIW the way I pregame THIS play is if one of us sees a toe on the line that person blows the whistle, puts up 2 fingers to the table and we get the ball back in play. No muss, no fuss and no huddle. In all other cases we huddle.

Gentlemen,
May I humbly present that if you are going to change it, it better be whistled then and there. If we wait until the next opportunity such as an OOB or another foul or something, it may be too late. This is not a timing or scoring error that can be corrected at any time, it is a correctable error (eroneously count or cancel points) that must be corrected within the constraints listed in the book. The timing/scoring error would be if we signal a 3 and the scorer records a 2.

I understand.
Thanks.

2 -->3
 

Had the same thing last Thursday. I blew whistle, went up to Trail and said "I had his foot on the line" he's "You're sure?" "Yep!" I try to get it done quick!

I don't know what I would do if it is a 1-point swing that makes a big dif in the winding seconds (6....5...4...) Should we put time back on, let players get a chance to get coached, IMO we whistle as quick as possible (you should know when you see the shot up and you have a descrepency with your partner, that you should kill it as soon as you notice it goes in {not watching ball though :)}) It should take 5 seconds and flow of a closing game shouldn't be interupted that badly.

Also wondered if anyone has changed a 2 to a 3. I don't see it happening but if T has a foot on the line in a gray area of coverage and I see wood b/t shoes and line, we got a situation.

Thanks All, this forum has been very informative!

Not trying to pile on, but I agree with Dan. :eek:

I agree with the information given so far when it comes to stopping the game and fixing it if you are 100% sure. I have no problem with that. However, to answer your question about the "peeks", yes they will get you in trouble. Do not let all the answers you have received so far give you a license to ball watch. Your responsibility was the post where most of the physical play occurs. If someone was to punch someone else who is going to pick it up? You obviously had 6 eyes on the ball. Well maybe not 6 since the C didn't have the play correct. In any case you have received good information if the situation comes up again but this particular situation should not come up again unless your next competitive match-up is across the lane at the 3 point line.

If you guys say I <U>hafta blow the whistle</U>, I'll do it Dan's way, too. It is less disruptive.
...And my partner is still a screw-up.
(It's happened to me once, maybe twice, so far.)
mick

Man, can I pick the topics or what!!

Awesome feedback guys.

Bending the topic a little
 

Bending the topic a little, but not much.

We can from, time to time, get straight-lined, because of a quick pass (<I>or a quick nap</I>), and we just cannot see the line.

It is at those hopefully few times, that we hope our partner did have a look.

The mechanic is to not signal, but look at our partner. If he gives us three we're good, if not we pass.

During the two minute, dead ball game when we get together to pump ourselves up for the final seconds of a close game, I often mention "Let's make sure we help each other on the Threes." ;)
mick

"During the two minute, dead ball game when we get together to pump ourselves up for the final seconds of a close game, I often mention "Let's make sure we help each other on the Threes."..........while someone is getting slaughtered in the paint right in front of you.

This is mechanically wrong and you should trust your partners. You can justify it all you want but it is not something that should become a normal part of a game. I don't know what kind of games you are officiating but the ones I work do not allow me the opportunity to stray. My game tonight came down to the buzzer. I was the trail and the shot was taken on the opposite side of the court. Could I look over there? No! I had to watch the rebounders since one kid was about 6'7" 265lbs and the other kid was about 6'7", thin as a rail but could jump out of the gym. I HAD to stay with the rebounders. I guess if I had pre-determined that I wasn't going to make a call no matter what or I didn't have the courage I could have looked anyplace I wanted. I have a make-up game tomorrow and I will stress that, off-ball officiating. Just tonight I had to tell the JV guys they were going to sprain a muscle watching the ball all over the court.

Mick,can you answer this with no buts. Is what you are saying mechanically correct?

tomegun,
I figgered watching your own primary first went without saying. But you said it anyway, and of course I agree. :rolleyes:
mick

Look, I don't know who you are or where you work or the level you work at and I am sure you're the best thing that's happened to basketball in the last 50 years. But you're wrong. Please don't take this as a personal attack but one of the silliest things we refereees like to say is "if you're looking over there who's looking over here". Well, I'm telling you we need to look everywhere.

Generally (notice I said generally), we keep track of the game clock, keep an eagle eye on the shot clock, get a good view of how the O & D are setting up, sneak a peak at the coach if we think he needs a timeout, look for cutters coming in & out, watch how a play might develop, etc etc and still manage to referee our area. Let's face it, no assignor pays me or you to stare at the 5 square feet in front of us. Court awareness. I'm not saying watch the ball, I'm not saying call all over the court, I'm not saying there are not times where you need to focus like a hawk on a matchup, I am saying that if you are only aware of what's happening in your area and not what's happening on the court then you might as well not show up. And if you at L blow the whistle and tell me at T that A1 had his foot on the 3 point line while I have both arms in the air I am not going to wonder who the hell was watching the 2 big guys banging in the post. I am going to thank you. Because we got it right.

A few years ago I patented a device just for your problem. It involves special glasses for the official to wear that can detect when the official is looking at the ball when he should not. The glasses are connected to a battery pack that sends an electrical charge to the official's "reserved parking space" whenever the glasses detect that the official is looking at the ball when he should not. I just do not know why I have not sold more of them.

MTD, thats classic.

Does it take 9v batteries?

Nope, a car battery. I can't understand either why he hasn't sold more of them.

Dan, I'm not hardly the best thing to happen to the game. The game is probably 5th on my list of the best things to happen to me. I was just making a point with Mick that we cannot go in thinking it is OK to make this a regular part of our game. That's all nothing more nothing less.
When you speak of the L getting a call right that the T missed are you talking about 2-person or 3-person? I think the two are very different. You have to extend all areas in 2-person so I can see that happening more often. In 3-person this should only happen during transition, between the L and T, or possibly a trap situation where the T is high and the shot is taken in the corner. It should not happen between the L and C in a 3-person game. Do you dissagree with that?
I didn't take any offense to your words because sometimes a "personal attack" makes us better. We are trying to get plays right and your opinion causes me to look at things from a different view. That is a good thing to me. Plus, if we have thin skin we are in the wrong business.

This happened to me two weeks ago (sorry if I'm too new to really chime in here, I won't make any presumptions). I was L, and because of the angle where the play developed, I clearly saw the shooter's foot on the line on a three (having ADD sometimes means you can see a whole lot of things---including, yes, the area you're supposed to be looking at---in a short time).

Then I quickly looked back where I was supposed to be looking, in the paint, but I could tell the shot went in because of the way everybody reacted. My partner and I made eye contact (he didn't signal three), I signalled two, he looked at me again as if to say "you sure?" and I emphatically put the two fingers down again to say "Yep, I' sure." He said cool, one of the 25 or so fans there wondered aloud about it, but we went on.

Next break he said he was glad I was sure because he didn't have a good view of it.

The debate is good, though, because I realize that there's a reason they call your primary coverage area your primary coverage area (and not your sole coverage area). Just reading this thread will make me more aware that I need to concentrate on my area that much more.

However, since I do have ADD and quick eyes, I will try to help out my partner if he looks to me as if he needs/wants it. If you're in synch, sometimes you can get it done with a nod and body language and don't need to stop the game and talk it over.

But, as mentioned, the important thing is to get it right. As long as everybody is on the same page with that, and doesn't get their ego bruised if their partner helps them out with a call, the game will be fair.

And that's the whole point, isn't it?

When I speak of getting the call right I mean get the call right. If I signal a 3 that's actually a 2, do you think the next day's sports section will say "Dan blew a last second call that gave the visitors the game. Tomegun and Bart were the other 2 officials, but since that shot wasn't in their primary they did a good job."

Wow, now I know what it is like to be taken out of context! After what you quoted I went on to expain why I asked wheter it is 2 or 3 person. Do you really think that if Johnny's mom is getting dental work done on her son she is going to care that Dan was watching the ball while her son caught a bow in the paint? Are you going to T up coach A when he is pissed about a illegal pick that caused someone to be wide open for the go ahead basket that you missed because you wanted to make sure your partner (who is also getting paid for the game) was seeing the correct thing? My point is what happens when we miss something while we are looking at the ball? I thought the original post was a 3-person game and the 3 was taken in the C's primary. Isn't it a stretch for the L to see this? This happens all the time in a 2-person between the L and T for a good reason but between the L and C? It also happens all the time between the T and C in a 3-person game. That is a given the L has the paint! You know the area where they get the "rough play in the post" point of emphasis e v e r y year.
Things we discuss on this board is practice. You know everyone can hit a J in practice but when you have some live defense the percentages go down. Your mechanics in the mirror can be perfect but aren't going to be quite that good in a game. Plays work perfect on paper but don't work that well in a game. If we prepare to be mechanically perfect it will not happen in a game but we will be better than if we go in with the mindset that it is OK to be all over the place. Sort of like that shoot for the moon and you will still be among the stars mumbo jumbo.
I have to go to a game now.

I know what you were getting at, you wanted to discuss mechanics. I keep telling you I don't care about the mechanics, if you see something I did wrong that we agreed before hand can be corrected (and if we ever work together we will pregame this sitch) then I want you to fix it. That, to me, is more important than mechanics.

Dan,

There are many players that can duplicate an And 1 tape but do not have a grasp of the fundamentals.

There are a lot of kids that have a basketball camp jump shot and can't function outside of a pick-and-roll system.

Then there are the kids that have a grasp of the fundamentals but also have the ability to isolate and bring the crowd to it's feet if need be.

In my officiating I want to be like the 3rd group of kids. Of course there are exceptions to the rules but I want my game to be fundamentally sound and I will adjust from there to get the plays right.

You look at it your way, I look at it my way and we will live happily ever after.

Sorry if this has already been said.
 

I think you should stop play immediately (I talk about this in my pregames) and correct it. Because you might not have another chance realistically to correct it if the play goes up and down the floor several times. If you signal to the table and do not stop play, you might confuse the table as to what to do and to which official to believe. And I think it is much better to do so, because the coach will not complain that you were doing anything to screw them. If you do it immediately, it is like a foul, they know right then what is done and can much easily accept your intervention.

Peace

Wha? In my officiating I don't want to be like ANY group of kids. I want to get it right. And I still find it interesting that in your many posts in this thread you never once agreed that our primary mission is to get the calls right. Why is that?