Hello,
I coach travel AAA girls basketball and would like to know what to say to the officials in a game that will not piss of the officialbut get to the point. Also what are some of the things coachs say that unset officials that I should keep away from.

Thanks mike

If you do not know the official treat him as you would any stranger you deal with.

If you do know him then treat him as you think he might expect to be treated.

There is no hard & fast rule as to what can & cannot be said.

In general, a smile goes a long, long way.

Enjoy your season.

What kind of point are you trying to make? If the point is that you think a call was blown, you probably don't need to/shouldn't even worry about trying to make it, at least not in direct conversation with the official. The call isn't going to get changed no matter what you say or how you say it, so a single "Common ref, how can you call that a hand check?" (or whatever) should MORE than suffice. If you have a legitimate question/concern about a rule interpretation, ask a question during a time out. Even the worst official you will come across knows more about the rules than 95% of us coaches, so don't assume you can tell them what to do.

In my experience, AAU officiating can be pretty strained. The teams generally are paying some big bucks to be there, and the officials are aware of it. The officials also don't usually have very strong game mangement to back them up when coaches get out of hand, and I've seen some pretty bad situations arise. The bottom line, though, is I've never seen any coach get better treatment after p*ssing off the officials.

As for hot buttons, anything directed personnally at the official is BAD, as is profanity. Constant whining doesn't work. "Call it both ways" is a non-starter. "Come on, he went over the back there" might cause them to chuckle inside but won't buy you any credibility. "How come we've got 12 fouls and they only have 3?" is another comment to avoid. Basically, anything that questions their integrity will at the very least get them mad, and may well get you T'd immediately.

Recommendation. Not because I'm an official but because I have coached and have been a parent of two players.

Say very little to the officials. Concentrate on coaching your team. You will be in a better standing with the refs and more respected. You will also be able to better focus on what is happening in the game.

Truly, the best advise is: don't worry about us, worry about your team. You will be a more successful coach and be teaching much more valuable principles to your players.

Good luck coach.

Im my opinion, its all about respect! show me some respect and ill show you some respect.

If you question a rule interprutation that i may have made I have no problem speaking to a coach about it as long as it is done repectfully and it is not done during a live ball or holding up the game. Whether i know the coach or dont know the coach i expect the same amount of respect from either one.

I understand that in the excitment of a game with the adrenaline flowing that some times things will be said by a coach like he was over his back, or that was a hack or things to that nature as long as they dont happen frequently.

I believe the worst thing to say to any official is anything that may be interpreted as a slam to the integrity of that official. stay away from any comments that could be judged in that manner.

Communicate with the referees very sparingly. The rules are not open to debate and we don't have time for anything but a quick discussion once or twice during a game. Anything more than that and we really should get both coaches together to avoid favoritism. If you wish to tell the referees how you feel about a call, it's better to keep that to yourself. If you need clarification, please ask per Dan-ref's rules of etiquette.

And please don't ask us to "call it the same both ways." Most of the time, those guys are out there bustin' butt. The last thing they want to hear is that you think they're cheating.

If you are fortunate to have three man crews, you may have a little more access to a referee. Again, use it sparingly for best effect.

Coach, if you have a genuine question about a rule situation or about what the last call was or about who the last foul was on -- then, by all means, ask politely, as others have said. Any good official will take 20 seconds to explain what s/he saw on a given play.

If you have a comment or are trying to make a point, then please don't be offended, but you're better off just keeping it to yourself. Your comment is likely to be ignored, at best. Even if you think you're helping by pointing out that "22's bumping my cutters on every play", the official is not likely to pay much attention. You'll get a nod and then the official will forget whatever you just said. That's not intended as an insult; it's just a fact. There's too much stuff going on for us to worry about everything a coach wants called.

JMO, but I think somebody already gave you the best advice: forget about the officials and coach your team. On the rare occasions when I've given a T to a coach, it's amazing how they go back to coaching once they realize that they're done working me for the night. And the team usually plays better when that happens.

Best of luck with your team, Coach.

It is like Jeopardy,always in a form of a question.If you are making statements at me or my partner(s)you will get ignored,warned,or whacked with a T.

That was good advice about coaching your team and don't worry about us.A coach that has been yapping all game,may have a legitimate gripe,but it will be lost in all the,"That's 3 seconds!","They're over the back!","Call it both ways!" nonsense.

When a coach that has been coaching his team and has not said a word to you since the coaches meeting says something,it sticks.

Ditto on Chuck's observation about the players response to a coach's attitude. If you chirp at the refs, the players pick up on that and tend to disagree with every whistle. If you stay focused on the players, they stay focused on you and play their game. What I find amazing is that, many times, a coach doesn't see the effects of their behavior and we have to deal with it.

My pet peeves!
 

These comments from coaches will cause me concern when I hear them from a coach:

1. Three seconds, foul, traveling, three seconds, foul, traveling.

2. Counting fouls

3. They are ____ us everytime down the court.

The more a coach complains the less credibility he has. I will listen to occasional comments from coaches but constant banter I will address early and if a coach doesn't take care of his problem I will do what I have to and take care of it for him. If I don't take care of it early it is becoming more of my fault and not just the coaches. I will not tolerate a play by play of my referreeing. If I have to talk to a coach I will tell him that I will work with him if he works with me. It it not a one way street. If a coach doesn't say much when he does make a comment you can bet I will listen and will be checking it out the next time down the floor. Constant chatter tells me that he is biased and he will quickly lose his credibility. Generally the coaches in our area are very good to work with and if you are going to have trouble it will be with a younger coach who is still trying to find himself in a very difficult profession.

I agree completely with what has already been said and addressed, I will add one comment of my own.

Coach "Aw come on you gotta call something"

This one 99% of the time results in an immediate call "T"

It is more the way it is said than the actual wording, but usually with me it ends in the manner above

Good Luck coach and above all remember it is a game :D

You are tough!
 

How on earth can that be said is such a way that it's a "T" 99% of the time? You are one quick hombre. :eek: :D

[Edited by CYO Butch on Feb 3rd, 2004 at 12:51 PM]

I'll add a couple of thoughts...1)Understand that officials don't give a rat's a$$ who wins the game - we are there to manage the game. So making comments about the job we are doing serves no purpose...2)An unofficial "rule" most officials follow is that "a legitimate question deserves a legitimate response" - so if you have something you don't understand or agree with, ask it as a legitimate question...3)realize the things that upset officials are the same types of comments that upset you when coming from your team parents and directed towards you - challenging your authority, integrity, authority, and/or honesty...doesn't sit well with you, won't sit well with us...4)yelling never works, so don't do it...and lastly, my pet peeve is trying to show officials up - esp. when a ref makes a call against a player and the coach yells "Hey 54, that was a nice box-out/block/steal" or whatever was just called...

Re: You are tough!
 

LOL actually I have a pretty thick skin. Usually "you gotta make a call" or whatever form it takes is preceded by how come that wasn't this or you didn't see that lada lada lada, and I have usually said "coach I have heard enough" at which point I have heard "you gotta call something" so thus endeth the coaches box....To be honest there is only one coach that uses that one on me, and he is 3 for 3 to the best of my recollection...Nice guy usually, but there are times that we just don't agree on officiating philosophy....

Our last exchange went this way, after a no call that he rightfully had a beef with...after the no call as I head down court hey says (not loud enough for everyone to hear) Jes** Ch***. So we go down the court then back to his end I am trail table side, I hear you gotta call that down here. I just go about my business, while he keeps chirping, I hear enough that I say coach I let ya get away with the language now I have heard enough.

Coach "well I'm just tellin ya"
Me "coach don't "tell" me anything"
Coach "well you gotta make a call"
Me tweeeet "T"

what a way to start the season in the first 8th grade girls game of the year LOL

Re: You are tough!
 

Only 99% of the time??? Why not do what i do in this situation, coach wants me to make a call, i'll make a call, but i don't think he/she will like my call. ;)

Start with two basic premises: (1) in almost all circumstances, the refs knows the rules as well or better than you do; and (2) in almost all circumstances, the refs have a better view and angle on the play than you do.

Then it follows that your conversations with the refs should, for the most part, be limited to asking questions when you do not understand what happened. And, asking for a time out.

There is never, ever, anything gained by yelling at the refs or argueing with them after a call. But, there is a lot to lose. At a minimum, your players will lose their focus.

If the refs blew the call (and they do regularly), they almost surely know it, and pointing it out does not help. If you merely disagree with the ref, live with it -- argueing with them will not change their opinion.

By-the-by, one of the best things that you can do to improve the interactions between your team and the refs is to make certain that your players really know the rules of the game -- most do not, and this is the coaches fault. For example, consider giving your players an old NHFS written exam.

This is excellent advice. I regularly have a little rule knowledge quiz at the end of my practices, usually based on some interesting thread I read here. I will demonstrate a behavior (or a number of them), then ask my players to say whether they were legal or not. I cover both violations and fouls. They enjoy it, and it makes them better players as well.

A coaching ref
 

I am an AD in a grade school, I ref, and occasionally I help coach. I make no effort to effect the way a ref handles the game. It's not why I'm there as a coach. I have however, had times where I've had questions on what was called. For example, I had a player who picked up three fouls in the first quarter. Two looked like clean blocks. I politely talked to the ref at half time. I asked him if he could explain to me what he was seeing on the blocks so that I could tell my player what to do differently. He explained that there was contact on the follow through (we couldn't see from our angle). He appreciated that I wasn't questioning his judgment but my vantage point, and he explained his call. Notice I wasn't asking him to change the way he reffed either.

Just coach your team. When you start coaching the officials, not a good thing. When coaches worry about their team, it makes me respect your complaints when you complain. But when ever call is questioned and every play has a comment about the officiate, not only will most officials tune you out, but then they might start looking for reasons to get you. And we are human beings, we will and can get you.

Peace

Talking to Refs
 

And we are human beings, we will and can get you.

Is that really necessary? This kind of statement is what makes it tough for me to give officials respect because they feel they deserve it. I realize they have a tough job, but comments like this, I feel are unecessary.

In defense
 

In defense of JRut, he has been on the forum actively spouting wisdom for a while. I can see where you could take the quote 'we can and will get you' defensively. However, let me be the first to say that after reading many of JRut's posts and responses, he is not the kind of guy looking to start trouble or abuse authority. He's simply making the observation that as humans, any official can be tempted to use the authority inappropriately when baited. Do I have that right, Jrut?

Re: In defense
 

My statements had nothing to do with abusing power or making up things. But when you step slightly out of that coaching box and you have been complaining from play one about traveling and we are in the fourth quarter, I know many officials that will not give that coach <b>any slack.</b> Same goes for players, when you complain about everything, that benefit of the doubt goes out the window. Because there are always calls that an official is not 100% sure about, but we might pass on it or allow the play to continue. When you draw attention to yourself, it makes your case less credible. I am one that will just ignore you and not say anything the rest of the game, if I feel a coach is just being stupid. And usually the coaches get the message. But other officials will just stick you and think nothing of it.

I would compare the situation to a boss/employee relationship. If you curse out your boss, he or she might not fire you, but they will not speak up for you when the promotion comes or the raise is discussed. Officials are human beings and I have been around enough officials that at halftime or at timeouts discuss their intentions the next time that coach opens their mouths.

Peace

Talking to Officials
 

I must say I give Jrut credit for trying to explain himself, but I feel he just adds to the problem of the official is on top of the world, and everyone else is below him or her. I hear a lot on this board and from reading this post that you should treat an official the way you expect to be treated, this I agree with. But I can not put Jrut on the pedestal that he requires. Jrut it sounds like you make a lot of assumptions, remember what happens when you assume things, it makes an *** out of you and me if I believe it.

Re: Talking to Officials
 

I am only on the pedestal that the rulebook allows. And it is the official, <b>not the coach</b> that decides what behavior in a game that is to be tolerated. It it is against the rules to question the judgment and authority of an official. But most officials choose to be nice and allow that to some extent or turn the other cheek. So if you want to be an jerk, just understand that some will pull the trigger quicker than others. If you want to roll that dice, just do not be surprised when you crap out.

Two-thirds of the season is gone and I have not given one technical in any game at any level. But I have watched many games and seen officials just raise their voice and the coach got T'd up. So it is apparant to me that everyone is not going to give you the rope that I and others might. So, run you mouth all game long. But I know many officials that will not hesitate to shut it. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/ignore.gif

Peace

The main thing that annoys me is the lack of rule knowledge from the coaches, even at the HS level. Hearing constant, "over the back" and "reach" and "call it both ways" from coaches does not endear me to them at all. Same with the yell for the phantom travel. One time I was at an 8th grade game waiting to coach my baseball team. Some of the players recognized me as a ref and asked about travelling. I asked them who knew what the rule for travelling is? Every one had different answers involving the number of steps.

Hostile coaches lead to hostile players and hostile fans and the quickest way to an ugly game is to allow angry and incessant criticism from a coach who doesn't know the rules of the game. I will not tolerate constant whining, profanity or any sort of personal comment or gesture directed at me by a coach, nor will I allow counting in any way, particularly of calls I "missed." If a coach is a blowhard and clearly doesn't know what he's yelling about, he will more than likely have a shorter leash than the guy who's more tactful and intelligent.

I'm checking in kinda late on this thread, but I want to make just one observation. The very best coaches of the very best teams, coach their players only. I had a game with an unbelievably good 8th grade team where I never heard the coach say one word against the refs, and we weren't that great. Here's one interaction I heard between him and one of his players:

She: Coach, I'm getting hacked!
Coach: Then you're not running fast enough. Get away from that defender!
She: But why isn't the ref calling it?
Coach: Because you're doing something wrong.
She: ME!?!?
Coach: If what you're doing isn't getting the result you want, do something different. It's that simple.

First of all, this is very good coaching, and he got results. Second of all, I was totally on his side for the rest of the game. I didn't call it unfairly, although they'd have won by 30 points or more no matter what I did. But I definitely didn't have to tighten up to prove a point or something. The coach and I were on the same team, trying to give the girls a good game. I liked that feeling!

Be respectful like you would to any other adult and expect the same of your players and their parents.

Know your verbal and physical boundries and stay within them. Coach your team. No, really coach your team by looking at what is going on. If the fouls are lopsided ask yourself "is the talent, height, defensive characteristics, physical ability and aggresion the same?" If everything isn't equal between two teams how can the fouls be equal. Understand what the officials are trying to do. I was once told "four minutes into the game you should have it by the short and curlys." You can't complain about a disparity in fouls until the end of the game and then only if the teams are equal in every area. That is probably never going to happen!

Finally, make adjustments. Isn't this a big part of coaching anyway? I will let you in on what is said many times "they will have to adjust to the way we are calling." That means what is going to be called is going to be called. You can add to that by putting a T in the mix but why? I don't want to do it but sometimes I'm forced to.
I had two very well behaved coaches in a game last night. One coach didn't say anything to us and his players didn't either. I think that has something to do with them trying to win a sportsmanship award. That isn't such a bad thing since the another product of that goal is well behaved kids. The other coach got upset twice. One was when my partner called basket interference. The other was when I sent one of his players, a starter, to the bench to take off a white T-shirt since their unforms were blue. Now this happened in the second quarter. I was in a giving mood so I told him in the firt two minutes of the game to take it off when he goes to the bench. Well, I should have sent him to the bench right then but I didn't. He played all of the first quarter and they went to the bench. He started the second quarter and a sub came in for him. He came back into the game a couple of minutes later. I sent him back. I explained all of this to the coach and he said "it amazes me what you guys come up with." Huh? I didn't write the rule book but it is in black and white. If I took the time to explain all of this and it has been a rule for a long time why do you have a problem with me? By February you should have all of this worked out. Well, I didn't hear from him anymore and he didn't have anything to complain about.

??????????

Don't Nag
 

Chirping, calling violations and fouls from the bench, does no good. I remember back in my very first HS game, girls JV. I called a travel on a visiting player. There was a TO either right after or shortly after and the visiting coach came up to me and said, "you know, I think she fooled all of us because that really looked like a travel, but if you really think about it, I don't think it was". That was my first experience with a coach and it has been all down hill ever since. There are ways to make your point without putting someone on the defensive.

Mregor

Re: Talking to Officials
 

Coach give it up. Your post here is a complete non-sequiter from Rut's post. He didn't say anything about a pedastal. He only pointed out the obvious, and I think your issues are getting in the way of your vision.
I don't recall a single post from you that wasn't complaining about some mythical offense you took by something an official said on this board. You were offended by Dan's jocularity (that's "sense of humor" for those of you in Rio Linda), and you're offended by Rut's pointed advice.

An analogy, Coach.
You're becoming that coach who is complaining from the tipoff about phantom fouls and vague violations. I hear you yelling during a throw-in, "he traveled." I hear you screaming when your player loses a rebound, "Over the back!" I hear you hollar, "call it both ways!" when we call a hand check on your point guard. I hear you yell, "Reach in!" when your forward has the ball stolen. I hear you keeping score by reading the foul chart.

Now, when you have a legitimate question about why I didn't call a back court violation (I may have even kicked the call), I don't hear you. All I hear when I see your lips moving is, "3 seconds!"

Never tell the referee's that you were/are an official as well. If you ever are or become one - don't play both roles.

Don't call fouls and other violations from the bench.

COACH YOUR PLAYERS!!!!

Re: Re: Talking to Officials
 

Oh, look who's back. BBallCoach with 15 total posts and 15 of those posts telling us why he doesn't like officials.

Re: Re: Re: Talking to Officials
 

At least he is consistent LOL :D which is all we can ask of a coach....oh wait that is all they should expect of us LOL

From coach to coach
 

Limit what you say to stuff that really matters, and stuff that can maybe be changed. Stuff that can change includes correctable error - but you better know the rule cold, including what falls under it and when it can be applied. I will also go to a ref if a team is consistently doing something illegal and getting an advantage from it, e.g., scoring off an illegal screen. You don't ask them to call the one that just happened, but you might say that "Watch 32, she is setting illegal screens at the elbow every time," or something to that effect. But this should only be used when it's blatant and happened more than one occasion, not the borderline screens that we all get away with or the single illegal screen that was missed.

I will rarely go to the ref on a blatant missed call where I think I might get it back, like the three points rule on the backcourt call (and I got one of these reversed when the ref just blew it and knew it) or an inbounds backcourt call when we didn't have player control (also got one reversed). However, I have also had a ref say my team did have control or that my dribbler did have all three points front court, at which point the conversation is over - we are now in agreement as to the correct application of the rules, he just saw something differently than me and it's what he saw that counts!

Also, I didn't do any of these things in a confrontational manner, and I was right on the point about what the rule was and why it impacted a call.

Stuff that you leave alone is in many posts above (asking for 3 secs, over the back, etc.), as well as the single no-call on a foul, arguing a block/charge call, arguing the direction on an OOB call, etc. These are single calls based on judgment, they were already made, and they don't change. If you think a rule was applied incorrectly, know the rule and plead your case responsibly. If you think he didn't see the right thing and you want to question his judgment, you get nowhere in my experience.

I personally feel that a coach who is also an official should be held to a higher standard than a normal coach. Officials know how abusive coaches can be, and whenever i've reffed a game with an official as a coach, they have always been the most polite people.

For example a story from a game i did earlier tonight,

Coach A, all game "travel, call it both ways, 3 in the key, over the back, he's reaching, etc..." I finally give him the stop sign and say that's enough. He tells me he wants the T, so i give it to him. He set an example for the kids, because 2 T's were then called on bench personel by my partner. Not one word from coach B all game. Coach B's kids didn't argue with 1 call. At the end of the game, coach B comes up to me, tells me he's a former official. IMHO, Coach B's behavior is what is expected of officials when they choose to coach.

Unfortunately, I have also seen a coach who is a college official get the double T special because he couldn't stand the incompetence of the officials assigned to his girl's 6th grade travel game. Goes both ways. People are people.

JRUT
 

And we are human beings, we will and can get you.

Seeing that I always seem to take things out of context according to the braintrust of this fine board, I was wondering how I should interpret this quote from the wonderful JRUT. I look forward to seeing how fasts all the officials ban together to insult me and defend their good old officiating buddy JRut. This should be interesting.

1) I don't agree with that at all. I think that <b>all</b> coaches should be held to an <b>equal</b> standard. Our job is to be equally fair, and you can't be that if you start using different criteria to deal with different coaches.

2) Question? Coach A got a direct T, and he also should have have got 2 indirect T's for the 2T's that were called on his bench personnel. Did you eject him as the rules call for?

That i did.

Re: JRUT
 

I do not need anyone to stick up for me, I can do that all by myself quite well.

I made the same analogy in your other post. If you were to insult a cop that was giving you a ticket, that cop might have a couple of options. They can give you a ticket or they can give you a warning and let it go. If you insult that cop and call them names, they may and will not give you the benefit of the doubt. If you are nice and respectable, they might look the other way or think twice about giving you any punishment at all.

As an official, the more a coach b!tches and complains about fouls, not only does that lose credibility from me, but you will lose credibility with my partners. Then I will not hesitate to T you, and it might not have been for much, but I am just tired of hearing your mouth. It might just be you standing out of the coaching box when we ignored that during other parts of the game. But if a coach has not complained the entire game and now I have a tough call, then they complain, I will easily consider what they have to say much more than someone that has been a bullhorn the entire game.

Just one more thing. Officials treat newer coaches just like coaches treat newer officials. If you are a brand new coach, you are not getting the same rope as the the coach that has been around 20 years and has one 3 State Titles. It is just not going to happen. I know more officials that have been around 20 years than coaches that have been around in that same time. And officials know that the players and coaches change, but the schools and the officials for the most part stay the same. And trust me, you act a fool in front of a well respected official, do not be surprised if someone else knows the situation and watches you much more closely in the next game.

Everything I am telling you has nothing to do with fantasy, it has to deal with reality. And if you are too ignorant to see that, so be it. We are all human beings. Human beings do all kind of things in this world. Do not put it past an official to be really eager to stick your *** or throw you out of a game if you act in an really bad way.

Peace

Re: Re: Talking to Officials
 

I think I have heard that before. Ditto :)

My bad
 

<b>In defense of JRut, he has been on the forum actively spouting wisdom for a while. I can see where you could take the quote 'we can and will get you' defensively. However, let me be the first to say that after reading many of JRut's posts and responses, he is not the kind of guy looking to start trouble or abuse authority. He's simply making the observation that as humans, any official can be tempted to use the authority inappropriately when baited. Do I have that right, Jrut?</b>

I apologize, Bballcoach, for my previous words saying something nice about Jrut. I guess it wouldn't really be fair to take his words in the context of his 3,000 posts to this forum, now, would it? In the future, if I don't have something nasty to say about somebody, I won't say anything at all.

Re: JRUT
 

Rut has already answered well for himself, but I felt the need to add something here. There is a very simple formula that should be used when attempting to ascertain what Rut means when he writes.
"At face value." Nothing more, nothing less. By a very strange coincidence, that same formula generally works with all of our posts.
Rut simply meant that if a coach acts like an a$$, he makes himself a target. Rut's police analogy is perfect here. Focus on the "human beings" aspect of it, and you'll realize what he meant.
Good grief, I'll spell it out for you one more time. Officiating is 90% judgement (Did that contact create an advantage? Did that foot come up? Did he let go before he stepped out of bounds?). We're human, and our judgment can be affected by mouthy coaches. If a coach gets to be too much of a thorn in my side, my fuse gets shorter because the temptation is there to whistle him for any small offense I can find. We'd like to think officials would be above this, but we're human.

Re: Re: Re: Talking to Officials
 

Illustrating the absurd....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Talking to Officials
 

No the "for those of you in Rio Linda" quote. I got the rest of it. I'm not from Rio Linda. :)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Talking to Officials
 

I gathered that. ;)