Couple rules questions

DownTownTonyBrown · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 02:39pm

First question:
Heard through the grapevine of one of our upper officials who called a T for slapping the backboard. Coach was upset because he called Basket Interference and awarded 2 points, then assessed the T for 2 more points, and then gave the other team the ball and they scored another two points. The T was their center's 5th foul.

Was this done correctly? Should BI and a T both be assesed - I'm thinking no BI.

Of course my information is second hand, but the slap ocurred during a block attempt and apparently was not showboating.

Second Question:
During free throw attempt, girls like to assume the low position with the heel of the foot which is away from the basket, pivoted so that the heel is in the air fully above the colored block (ball of foot is on the floor where it should be, heel is outside the width of their marked lane space).

Why are girls doing this? I haven't called a violation for this, what seems to be an innocuous act. It is obviously a violation per rule 9-1-9 and I have told players to place their feet properly within their lane space.

It obviously doesn't affect the shooter and I don't really see that it gains them a better rebounding position. What do they think they are gaining? Should I just call the violation (delayed) and educate them that way?

Third question:
What is the proper procedure for shooting free throws when the defense doesn't assume the post lane spaces? Case book 9.1.2 suggests they don't need to be filled for the first attempt and that the official should signal the delayed violation and only assess a Techincal foul for further delay during the substitute throw. Whereas 10.1.5 Situation C(b)suggests that before the first violation, the official should direct the team to assume the marked spaces and that if they do not, a Technical foul is immediate.

Aren't these conflicting? What is the proper action?

Girl's District Tournament starts today!

It's coming to an end...

Hawks Coach · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 02:53pm

Question 1
Attempting to block and inadvertent slap of backboard is no BI and no T. If it is clearly a swat at the backboard, T. If the swat of the backboard vibrated the ring and shook the ball out, BI.

Question 2
Doesn't seem worth enforcing, though if it bothers you, tell the player and say that you will enforce if they don't stop. But if it's no advantage, no need to call - choose your battles. (The by-the-book crew can pile on at any time!)

Question 3
Two different situations. 9.1.2 and 10.1.5A are the same -resuming play procedure. In B and C, it is not following a timeout so you do not utilize the resuming play procedure. You just direct them to fill the spaces, give a formal delay warning, then call the T if they continue to delay.

Dan_ref · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 03:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Question 1
Attempting to block and inadvertent slap of backboard is no BI and no T. If it is clearly a swat at the backboard, T. If the swat of the backboard vibrated the ring and shook the ball out, BI.

You sure about this?

Dubby · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 03:32pm

Sorry Hawks Coach but I don't agree with your last sentence of question 1. Basket interference (4-6) and Goaltending (4-22) can only occur when a player touches the ball or basket. The backboard and basket, although attached, are not the same thing. It's a T or nothing.

Smitty · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 03:32pm

Of course he's sure - he's a coach. All coaches think touching the backboard is something that needs to be called.

Damian · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 03:35pm

Going for the ball on a block and hitting the backboard is not a violation. Hitting the backboard to showboat is a T and I have called it a few times. The same is true for shooters that shoot a layup and slap the backboards, although that usually warrants a strong warning from me first.

It would be really difficult to shake the backboard or rim by slapping the backboard without breaking your hand.

The foot over the box drives me crazy. I have had several veterans tell me it is not a violation. It sure seems like it to me. I try to keep them off of it. I never have called a lane violation, but have been tempted. The worse part is that they get no advantage for doing it and are usually so twisted around with their feet, that any bounce out from the rim goes to the defense.

For free throws, the bottom spaces must be filled. I give a warning to coach and players. I never have had it go further.

Hawks Coach · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 03:36pm

I don't really find this too likely anyway, so I will concede the point. But if you could shake the ball out without touching the rim, it really is not BI?

Dubby · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 03:45pm

That's correct, assuming it wasn't done intentionally. Here is what the case book says:

'The purpose of this rule is to penalize intentional contact with the backboard while a shot try is involved or placing a hand on the backboard to gain an advantage. A player who strikes either backboard so forcefully it cannot be ignored because it is an attempt to draw attention to the player, or a means of venting frustration may be assessed a technical foul.'

If there is one rule that I really wish they would change this would be it. It seems like so many coaches think that's what the penalty should be anyway. This would help officials out a lot. They could count the basket and not have to hand out T's. This way we wouldn't get screamed at for being right.

It would be beneficial for both sides.

Jurassic Referee · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 03:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I don't really find this too likely anyway, so I will concede the point. But if you could shake the ball out without touching the rim, it really is not BI?

No, it's really NOT BI, Coach.

Jurassic Referee · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 03:59pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dubby

If there is one rule that I really wish they would change this would be it. It seems like so many coaches think that's what the penalty should be anyway. This would help officials out a lot. They could count the basket and not have to hand out T's. This way we wouldn't get screamed at for being right. It would be beneficial for both sides.

I'm not sure how beneficial this would really be for officials. You're going from a play where there is only one way to call it and there's not really any judgement involved- i.e. it's never BI-, to a rule where each official has to use their own judgement as to whether the whack on the backboard definitely caused the ball to spin out, and thus BI should be called. The problem, as I see it, is that there is sometimes a great disparity between the judgement of each official, possibly being due to experience, skill level, etc.

Imo, any way that judgement can be reduced or taken out of a call makes for easier and more uniform application of that particular rule by officials.

Dubby · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 04:16pm

I thought that comment might stir things up a bit!

I agree that anyway judgement can be reduced is good for us. But right now officials have to make the judgement on whether a kid slapped the backboard intentionally, to showboat or if it was accidental. My feeling is that it's easier to see what a kid did physically (causing the rim to move) than trying to guess at what his intentions were. The majority of the time the ball goes in anyway so just count the basket and move on.

DownTownTonyBrown · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 04:24pm

Sounds like BI was for sure the wrong call. The definition of BI (4-6) does not include slapping the backboard. Showboating is definitely the official's judgement but if the ball was in the vicinity of his hand then a T was probably incorrect also.

Heel over the block.... who cares... Lady's, just don't trip over your toes and fall down in the key.

Use the resuming play procedure for after a time out and the lower blocks are not occupied (violation for initial delay and T for subsequent). If it is not after a time out, direct the defense to occupy the blocks and penalize with T for non-compliance.

Got it! Thanks a lot.

Perhaps next season, I will have a list of these type of topics that I can discuss in front of all the officials and coaches together... educate the ignorant... so to speak.

CYO Butch · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 02, 2004, 04:29pm

A hundred years ago, when I was in HS, our coach told us to slap the backboard after each layup as a way to make sure we were getting enough elevation. Now this was the days before ANYONE was playing above the rim, so a kid who could slap the backboard and make a layup on the same move was doing pretty good. I don't rembember ever doing it during a game, but we NEVER missed a layup!