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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 04:20pm
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Wink

davidw.

That was a great reply. Very well worded and understood.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 04:33pm
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Unhappy Ref Daddy's post, not Clay's post.

My first post was addressing Ref Daddy's statement. I was not addressing the original post specifically. I have read here and heard others make points of how profanity is automatic. Well to me it is never automatic. Because there are other terms if used are going to result in a T without the profanity. Sorry if that was misunderstood. But if the original post took place and I heard the player, I have no problem with giving them a T, profanity or no profanity. I know I have in the past given a T to players and they did not use any profanity. Sometimes it is the tone and the way things are said and done.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 05:35pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
PS 2, Dan, rut,

... but you are telling me you would not T a kid that turns to you and says F**K YOU after a call?
I never said that.

Quote:
Is it because we are not punishing this that our dignity as officials continues to come under increasing attack???
What I do here on the east coast has no bearing on what you do out there in MN. I do not depend on your actions on the court to uphold my own dignity.
I'm not disagreeing with anything you said Dan. In fact I think most all of us are nearly on the same page when it comes to what we will and will not accept out on the court. I was trying to get us to look at the bigger picture and unfortunately you and Rut seemed to think that I was personally attacking you. That was not the case. All I was attempting to state is that NATION WIDE sportsmanship has deteriorated in ALL levels of basketball noticably over the past few years. I am not saying that is any one of us or all of our faults. Maybe it is the system, the FED, or NCAA that tells us not to condone this behavior yet behind closed doors we are told to "let a certain amount slide". Officiating is the only avocation (for most of us) in which it is acceptable to in sopme cases be berated by fans, players, and coaches. IMO the system needs to do something to clean this up and create some consistancy on what is to be accepted. Maybe this is wishful thinking but I think each of us in different areas does have some imput on the integrity of others. This IMO is why we see sportsmanship issues trickle all of the way down from the NBA. It just seems to me that our job continually is getting more and more impossible and that frustrates me. Maybe it is just because I have had 2 games like this already this week and I am off to do another tonight.... My intent was never to accuse anyone of anyhting or attack their integrity.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 05:56pm
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Dude, we are just talking.

Quote:
Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said Dan. In fact I think most all of us are nearly on the same page when it comes to what we will and will not accept out on the court. I was trying to get us to look at the bigger picture and unfortunately you and Rut seemed to think that I was personally attacking you. That was not the case.
I did nto read anything after this part of you post. I am not taking anything as an attack. Unlike most people that tend to post here, we are having a discussion. That is all it is. If you saw my response as responding to an attack, I think you really need to know me better than that. For one nothing we discuss is going to change anyone's mind necessarily. We are just discussing all the issues and it is interesting. I cannot and will not speak for Dan, but this is a discussion. This is not personal. I do not know who you are at all. I am sure you are a nice guy, but if you think I feel you attacked me, you have greatly misunderstood the overall tone of any discussion I have had. All we are having is a discussion with point counter point. Do not take everything that is being said so seriously.

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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 07:37pm
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Just for my information... Will everyone assess a flagrant T for a kid that says FU after a traveling call against him? Whether his back is turned or to your face? If someone doesn't think this is the proper punishment, I think we have a problem in our ranks.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 08:07pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigJoe
Just for my information... Will everyone assess a flagrant T for a kid that says FU after a traveling call against him? Whether his back is turned or to your face? If someone doesn't think this is the proper punishment, I think we have a problem in our ranks.

If I receive a FU from a player, coach, or other bench personnel, that person is receiving a flagrant technical foul from me.

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 08:58pm
Ref Ump Welsch
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I would assess a flagrant T if the f-bomb was followed by you, since it was directed at someone. As for the f-bomb by itself, I'd promptly stop play, tell the kid to watch his language and let the coach know. If the coach decides to be an *** (as was the case in the original posting), I'd warn him that anyone on his team using the f-bomb will be getting a T no matter what. Usually coaches will shut up and really keep an ear out on their players.

Likewise, I've been known among coaches here for catching even the unspoken f-bomb. I've become such a good lipreader that I can distinguish any profane word, and bring a stop to it. That drives the guys in the city rec leagues I worked nuts. The HS coaches will be like where did that come from, and I'll flat out tell them, I saw it on his lips. Should see the looks I get when I say that. One result though: no more swear words the rest of the game!
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 08:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigJoe
Just for my information... Will everyone assess a flagrant T for a kid that says FU after a traveling call against him? Whether his back is turned or to your face? If someone doesn't think this is the proper punishment, I think we have a problem in our ranks.
If a player from my team ever sent an FU toward an official, the opposing coach, or an opposing player, I would hope they received a flagrant T. In most cases, I would follow it up with a suspension or expulsion from the team.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 11:16pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
PS 2, Dan, rut,

... but you are telling me you would not T a kid that turns to you and says F**K YOU after a call?
I never said that.

Quote:
Is it because we are not punishing this that our dignity as officials continues to come under increasing attack???
What I do here on the east coast has no bearing on what you do out there in MN. I do not depend on your actions on the court to uphold my own dignity.
...I was trying to get us to look at the bigger picture and unfortunately you and Rut seemed to think that I was personally attacking you.
Where in my reply do you get this idea from?


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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 09:30am
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Thanks for the replies, guys. I was reading this thread and getting confused. On one hand I'm reading that the player says FU with his back turned after a call against him and on the next I'm hearing that we should take the player aside and tell him not to do that!!!
All you new officials out there, THIS IS WHAT A FLAGRANT T IS. Don't get confused by the talk about swearing under your breath after a missed shot or bad pass. That's not what we're talking about here. Clay the only mistake you made was not tossing the kid in the first place. Then if the coach questions you he's an idiot. If he continues to be an idiot T him up and tell him to sit down for the rest of the game.
I'm kind of ticked off about this subject because of some of the things that are going on out on the court that are being let go. Also, I'm ticked off because all my games got cancelled this week due to the cold weather (-41 without the wind chill yesterday morning). Sorry for the ranting, but this call is very black and white and not subject to interpretation. If you wear the stripes, you have to make the call.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 04:37pm
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Dan, not only would I have T'd the young gentlemen, but I probably would have got the coach for trying to justify the players actions, how ridiculous. Tying to justify dropping an "F'bomb' with a 'you' attatched to it, because it was in "the heat of battle". you did the right thing..
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 01, 2004, 12:33am
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I would have tossed him in a heartbeat and if the coach actually said that I would have considered tossing him also... But I would only consider it and probably not toss the coach..
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 02, 2004, 09:00am
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Quote:
Originally posted by CLAY
High School game. I call travling on Team A player.He turns and has his back to me and say's fu*k you. I T him. The coach asked why the T and I explained to him what he had said. His reply to me was "He didn't say it to your face, so why did you give him a T" He also said, "In the heat of competition that I should have ignored it".

So you wonder why kids are the way they are today. That coach and player had no respect for the officials. But, mostly for the game itself.
I had a game where I as lead had a blocking foul on an illegal screen. I go to report and coach requests TO. As I'm reporting TO to the table, I hear from behind me, "that's F'd up". I turn and it is the kid about at midcourt that I called for the foul . I turn back to the table and give a T. Coach says I can't because it was during a TO.

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 02, 2004, 09:04am
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Re: Dude, we are just talking.

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge


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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 02, 2004, 09:54am
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Smile No brainer

If I hear the "F" word it is automatic and any official in high school basketball that would not address this is contributing to what is wrong with high school sports. I happen to be a classroom teacher and will not tolerate this behavior in my classroom, hallway or at any high school event and anyone involved with a high school activity that is not inforcing this rule should not be officiating at this level. You are not gaining any respect from the kids if you are overlooking this and they see you as weak and lacking authority if you do not call the offender on this issue. If you don't get backing from a coach because you T'd the "F" word then I wouldn't lose any sleep over it because he is not worth the time!! We do not have to apologize to anyone for expecting a little sportmanship. Someone on an earlier post said something about having to explain a "F" that only you heard to an evaluator, well if he doesn't accept your explanation then you need a new evaluator. Stand your ground because it is the right thing to do!!!
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