Girls game last Saturday. Coach A (male) is yelling at his girls "stay on your man", "get your man", "don't let your man do that".

At halftime, Coach B (female) tells me and my partner she resents Coach A referring to the B players as "men". She says it's demeaning.

At first, I ask her if she's kidding, but she isn't. I tell her it's common terminology in basketball and to forget it.

We start the second half and Coach A is at it again. However, this time, Coach B starts yelling at the girls on A, "don't listen to her".

When Coach A gives her a strange look, she says, "see how you like it, lady".

I had to tell her to knock it off and explained to Coach A what was going on. I left it up to him to continue to use the term "man", because I had no real reason to ask him to stop. I felt it was Coach B's problem.

Coach A said "man" a few more times and Coach B didn't respond. It was a really weird game.

What's worse? A manly girl or a girly man? :D

Coach B needs to get a life. In her world, a PC foul is a foul or not being <b>P</b>olicially <b>C</b>orrect.

This has to be a joke. Absolutely unreal.

But then again, how is it any different than those people who don't like the term 3-man crew for the officials?

its funny cause I hear that in the girls game all the time.Whats funny is I hear that terminology from female coaches as much as males.I think she needs to get over herself.

Interestingly, the first college women's camp I went to provided a similar experience. One of the evaluator's asked me to give some background information and when I said, "Last year I worked 85% of my games using 3-man mechanics", I heard a deep groan and then..."you mean 3-person mechancis!". I now always say 3-PERSON!

If I were working that game and the coach made the comment to me at halftime as she did to you, I'd tell her she needs to take it up with her administration since it's out of our jurisdiction. But what she did in the second half, I'd turn around and warn her for unsportsmanship behavior. I know we shouldn't be getting involved, but I'd rather say something like that than to have a state evaluator in the crowd coming up to me after the game scolding me for not controlling the situation.

Nah,cut her some slack. She's just a feminist.

I think that feminists are cute!

Why, to placate a female evaluator?

In the 8+ years since I became the father of a little girl, I've become somewhat of a feminist myself. While I agree that the female coach in Mark's story is probably a little over the edge, I find it curious that Mark told her to "knock it off" when she made female-centric comments, but told her to forget about the male coach's male-centric comments.

Again, I don't really see any problem with girls playing "man-to-man" defense. But I think there may be a problem when a female coach's concerns are dismissed as silly b/c she "has a problem", while the male coach's comments are allowed just b/c it's "common terminology".

I think we can all remember when derogatory names for African-Americans or gay people were considered "common" terminology. This example is obviously not as distasteful as those were; but the point is simply that common terms do not excuse us for ignoring the sensitivities of other people.

Oh man (oh, woman), it's females like Coach B who make life tough for the rest of us. What a pain in the butt. And it is usually GUYS who are into that PC stuff, stepping on eggshells, making sure they say "three-person," or "three-whistle." Perhaps they have been told to do this (by evaluators & assignors, male or female?) or perhaps it is their own assumption that it is expected. I always use masculine terms like "two-man crew," even when referring to myself or another female official. It's silly to expect everyone to change their usage and commonly accepted terms. After all, you and I KNOW I am a female, even when I am a member of your three-"man" crew.

I think it's funny how Chuck and I have "reverse" opinions.

Maryann, I don't think that the female coach had a real good beef. My only issue is that she was hushed when she referred to the male coach as "she". Why should Mark tell her to knock it off when everybody knows that he's a guy?

C'mon Chuck, this is a case of an overly sensitive person looking for a fight. Coach A employs a commonly used phrase, coach B goes out of her way to take offense. And she responds by attacking coach A in a manner she presumes would be insulting. Coach B is clearly an immature boob...err...jerk.

You want to "break the mold" for your little girl? Encourage her to study science, not nursing but physics. Discourage her from looking for boogers in even the most innocent settings.

How better to make her point? She used the exact same thinking that the male coach used. Call 'em "men". Why should anybody care? Everybody knows they're girls. . . Somehow that's not insulting.

But when she then uses the same technique -- Call him "she". Why should anybody care? Everybody knows he's a man -- you presume that it's insulting.

That's exactly her point. And while I personally wouldn't pick this fight, I don't think it's all that far-fetched.

p.s.
 

She's pretty set on marine biology. Well, as set as an 8-year-old ever gets. :)

I agree with Shorty!

He's cute,too!

Let's see....A uses a common yet completely innocent phrase that B finds insulting. B's reaction is to directly insult A in exactly the same context B took offense. Note that it's obvious that she expected coach A to find this insulting.

I say again, coach B is an immature boob.

Chuck, I'm a very centrist-thinking person. I've tried to get in the habit of saying "3-Person Mechanics", but I find nothing patriarchal about "man-to-man defense".

I think you're missing the point here. The Male coach was just coaching his team. The female coach was being deliberately provocative with no other intent but to piss off her opponent. This kind of action, as its defined here, usually results in a Technical foul. Instead, Mark (whom I loathe to agree with, remember) chose to nip it in the bud. The right move. Absolutely.

This woman needs to pick her battles a bit better.

"Immature boob" is going a bit far, though, I think.

Right, and yet somehow, when the male coach refers to the girls as boys, he expects them not to be insulted. So the guy should be insulted when refered to as a female; but the good little girls should not be insulted when refered to as male.

Again, this is not my fight. I don't think it's really that big a deal. But I think it's funny that we dismiss it so easily, as being the problem of some <s>boob</s> chick with a chip on her shoulder.

The more the world moves towards political correctness, the further it moves away from common sense. I'm surprised this "womyn" coach didn't teach a person-to-person defense. Every time I hear that I want to puke.

It's a general freaking term, people. This coach needs to spend more time coaching and less time taking up causes. Otherwise, let someone else coach who is willing to work hard to better the team.

Man-to-man defense, whose man are you covering, two-man officiating, blah-blah-blah, this has nothing to do with sexism or sexual discrimination. It's just a word, not an idealism, and it prevents us from saying really stupid sounding comments like "which opponent are you guarding", or "opponent-to-opponent (or person-to-person) defense." How about when my daughter's team scrimmages against the boys team (girl to boy defense?) And why does Coach B believe that Coach A's comments are demeaning? Does Coach B believe that men are inferior to women? Does Coach B believe that referring to Coach A (a man) as a woman is derogatory and offensive? My opinion: Coach A needs to be more polite and act like a lady. Coach B needs to suck it up and take it like a man. P.S.: I hope and pray that none of us ever have to worry about anything really important, like death, illness, divorce, our children's health, etc. P.P.S. to Coach B: Why do we refer to my boat as "she" when my wife has absolutely nothing to do with the boat? And if God is reading these posts, He (or She) might get really unhappy with us all.

[Edited by robertclasalle on Jan 26th, 2004 at 10:32 PM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Right, and yet somehow, when the male coach refers to the girls as boys, he expects them not to be insulted. So the guy should be insulted when refered to as a female; but the good little girls should not be insulted when refered to as male. Again, this is not my fight. I don't think it's really that big a deal. But I think it's funny that we dismiss it so easily, as being the problem of some <s>boob</s> chick with a chip on her shoulder.

Go back and read what I wrote...I'll wait here...OK, did you see where I said she's a woman with a chip on her shoulder? Did I say she's a b!tch, on the rag, a shrew, a hag, a witch, a dried up hysterical old **** who needs nothing but a good ****ing? No, I didn't. What I said is she's an immature boob, a description that defies gender classification, IMO.

Anyway, this all reminds me of a joke. Enjoy.

A man and his wife were working in their garden one day and
the man looks over at his wife and says: "Your butt is getting really big, I mean really big. I bet your butt is bigger than the barbecue."

With that he proceeded to get a measuring tape and measure
the grill and then went over to where his wife was working
and measured his wife's bottom."Yes, I was right, your butt is two inches wider than the barbecue!!!"

The woman chose to ignore her husband. Later that night in
bed, the husband is feeling a little frisky. He makes some
advances towards his wife who completely brushes him off.

"What's wrong?" he asks.

She answers: "Do you really think I'm going to fire up this
big-@ss grill for one little weenie?"

I have never heard a coach of a female basketball team (or soccer team for that matter) use anything but the term "man to man" (specifically for defense, obviously) or "man marking" (more in soccer). They do it and admit that it's just the way it is.

I think it's partially because it takes fewer syllables to say "man to man" than "person to person" (which sounds like you need an operator to complete it) or "woman to woman."

Or it could be that "man to man defense" is a concept and has nothing whatsoever to do with gender. That's just what it got named because the sport has, until the last, what, 50 years or so? been played and coached predominantly by men. Who got to make up the rules and the terminology.

The coach described here is the first coach or player of a female team that I have ever heard of not being on board with the term "man" to refer to a female player in a strategic sense.

I don't think it's an argument you can win, though. I would have said "Coach, to be honest with you, it's my understanding that it's a common coaching term that has nothing whatsoever to do with the gender or the perception of the femininity or masculinity of any of the players on the court. If it's something you feel strongly about, all I can tell you is you should take it up with your coaches' association if you have one, and if there's a consensus that it needs to be changed, take it further."

What I would then think, but would not say, would be "Good luck with that."

I agree. She an "immature boobs!" :D

If, and when, I ever work 3 man with a female partner, I'll refer to it as three person if she would like me to. But until then, it's three man because that's all I've ever worked.

Without all this PC, I guess we'll have to start using the erm he/she or his/hers every time we have a discussion about players or coaches that we don't know the sex of. :(

Sometimes you can tell right off the bat.

http://janetlee.org/images/squirrel.jpg

There was a quote in Sports Illustrated a long time ago, when women's basketball was first getting a lot of national attention. A coach, a woman I believe, but I couldn't swear to it, when asked about her defense said, "We play man to man. Person to person is a telephone call."

One reason Coach B got admonished was that she was yelling instructions at the other team's players.

BTW - there was nothing immature about her boobs. ;)

OK, Juulie - rip me.

Holy crap, Dan....any excuse to drag that pic out again, eh? :D

Me too, Juulie.
 

My kinda coach! :)

I've coached boys and I've coached girls. Truly a difference in coaching style needed, although both were fun.

For girls we jokingly called our defense, "M'am to M'am". When talking about post players, girls DON'T like being called "big". They prefer "tall". And make sure you pat them on the shoulder!

Why is the word "person?" Isn't that also sexist? Shouldn't "perdaughter" also be considered? ;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
[B]Right, and yet somehow, when the male coach refers to the girls as boys, he expects them not to be insulted.



I don't believe the coach was referring to the girls as boys, he was simply referring to the type of defense he wanted his team to play.

Mankind
 

First of all, High School players are boys and girls not men and women. Secondly, IMO, man to man refers to the species not the sex. Basketball is usually nat playied by dogs, apes, martians, ect; it is playied by humans, commonly called a generic "man".

depends!
 

I personally think that it is harmless but on the other hand if a boys coach said to play girl to girl defense it would have to be considered and insult and would carry a negative connotation. Or would it be a compliment on the great defense played by girls all over the country? As officials we know, "it all depends on your angle."

Re: Mankind
 

FINALLY!

Someone with a little English knowledge. The reason we call them the mailman, the policeman, the fireman is not because you have to be male to hold those jobs but because in the English languare the male and nueter use of nouns is the same. So by calling a woman a man using it in it's nueter form which is used during basketball games given our language should not be offensive to anyone. However calling a man a woman is offensive.

Re: Re: Mankind
 

However calling a man a woman is offensive.

[/B][/QUOTE]Not if he's neutered.

Re: Re: Mankind
 

Actually, they are "postal carriers", "police officers" and "firefighters".

Have you ever noticed how women refer to a group of other women as "guys" - as in "what are you guys doing"? :p

I coach girls, we play man
 

I have coached girls for years. We play man-to-man, and none of them object. These girls yell out "pick up your man," "whose man is that" (hope they don't yell that every possession!), etc., from our bench. I have attended numerous HS games this winter and heard the same thing from female coaches and the girls/women on the bench.

Like it or not, basketball started as primarily a men's sport, the terms are related to that beginning. We have man-to-man and zone defenses, and always will. I have never heard any of the 25+ coaches in our girls-only AAU organization call the defense anything but man-to-man. This includes both male and female coaches.

And when a rec coach tells a 4th grade boy to "pick up your man," do we really think he has a "man" to guard? Be serious - the term is used as a surrogate for player, not to suggest that a litle kid or a girl is a man.

This coach needs to lighten up. And no, I do not think calling the coach a lady is the same as that coach instructing his girls to pick up their man. Lady is not an acceptable term of art in basketball which is generally accepted to mean coach - man for player is an accepted surrogate and always has been.

This is the funniest post I have ever read in all the forums on the web. I think I would be laughing on the court when she pulled the lady crap on Coach A. Classic.

Reffish


I think I'd tell her, "That is not covered in the rule book, you'll have to call the Politically Correct Police."

Something to ponder.....are girls insulting their opponents by making a reference to their opponent being a male when they yell "BALL, BALL, BALL, BALL, BALL, BALL"?

I mean, if your going to be PC (no, I don't mean Player Control), you should take it all the way.

Re: Re: Re: Mankind
 

Not if he's neutered. [/B][/QUOTE]

J.R., Are you sure you're using the proper pronoun in this instance?

Welcome class to english 101 !!!!

p.s. they also call police officers (back when) Dicks

oooppps, did I say that?

I might be too young.
 

Was that just not the Detectives they called "Dicks?" I know police officers can be dicks, but that did not include everyone right? ;)

Peace

JR nice, very nice!!!!!

Vive la difference.
 

Mais, non, mon ami. Why, in Franz, they are going to follow up stripping the identities of Muslim girls (you are but zee hunk of protoplasm while you are in the care of the rational State) with removing the etymologically gender laden articles from their associated nouns. Everyone will begin to speak differently at midnight, 2005. Really. Trust me. They don't even know this yet, but it will happen.

Speech evolves toward efficiency. It's easier to say man-to-man than person-to-person. Prolly that has as much to do with what people do as anything. I mean, nobody complains when people refer to girls' balls, right? Be practical and loving, all will work out just fine.

Re: I might be too young.
 

Right. As though anyone thinks a dick head is in charge of the dicks.

Dicks are detectives, as in, the House Dick is the Hotel Detective.

Although, I've seem some dicks coaching and they were female as well as male. I think some of them wished they were male.

It's probably just as well I've been off having a life, and haven't read this thread till now. I'm more than a little disappointed in some of you. Oh, well, I'll get over it. Let's not do anymore discussion, though. I really don't want to have to get on my soapbox. As they say, "Don't get me started. Don't EVEN get me started..."

You must have been watching "Judge Hatchett" - she uses that statement at the opening of her show.

And if my truck I drive is a "Peterbuilt", should I call it a Johnsonbuilt?

No you should call it a "Patriciabuilt" or if you want to be totally PC then call it a "PATbuilt" aka saturday night live.

Who's dumber, you guys for continuing this thread, or me for reading the whole thing?

One more thing that no one has mentioned, you will do what you are told to do. No one wants your opinion!!! If the NFHS says that players will only be reguarded as "persons", that's what you and the coaches will call them. The Bob Knights of the world are a dying breed.

You're kidding, right? The NFHS? Please. I haven't had one game check signed by them or one assignment made by them.

Answering your other question, there may be more than two options to consider.

Wow, that's a tough question that will require serious consideration on my part. Since I'm kind of an analytical geek, I think I'll write down the evidence as I see it then proceed to carefully weigh each piece.

What do I know about lrpalmer3?

1)Chooses to come out of the box on first post questioning the intelligence of forum members.

2)Judges forum members based on one thread rather than the totality of the information conveyed therein.

3)Makes emphatic statement regarding the fact that no one wants our opinion but has registered to participate on a board where we express our opinions.

4)Apparently thinks NFHS is leader of totalitarian regime that controls all that is said.

5)Makes inane comment about Bob Knight that I am having trouble connecting with the rest of the post.

What do I know about everybody else:

1)For the most part, good people seeking to be as professional as possible in their hobby.

2)Committed to answering legitimate questions posed about basketball rules.

3)Tolerates the "Can I catch my own airball" question without any known felonies committed against those asking it for the four thousandth time.

4)Rainmaker makes a lot of literary references so she must be able to read books.

5)Of course, you've got to consider Padgett ;)

Ok, Ok, that's enough. I have made up my mind. Of course, since I assume that this is a secret ballot, I won't disclose my vote.

To give <b>lrpalmer3</b> a little break, my guess is that when he was saying "<b>Nobody wants your opinion</b>" he was refering to the people who make the rules at the NFHS, not the people who read and post here. If that is what he really meant, I think I agree with him. On the other hand, what <b>is</b> with the Bobby Knight reference? Are we supposed to believe the guy was a role model for independent thinking?

Coach B was out of line
 

Sorry, but the difference is that Coach A is talking to Team A. This is his job. Coach B is talking to Team A about Coach A. None of her business.

A coach is supposed to coach, not hold a political rally. This is something she should probably have complained about in the pre-game conference. Surely this is not the first time Coach B has run into someone using 'man' as a generic term for a player.

Woman, oh woman, this thread is getting out of hand! And to think it all started with a coach getting mad about her team being womanhandled on the court. How did we womanage to get this far?

Perhaps this is not for officials to decide, but for game womanagement to decide. I wonder what this coach's womantra is...probably "womany spoons stir the pot" or whatever that saying is spouting forth from her womandible.

As soon as this thread is closed and forgotten about, it will be like womanna from heaven.

Well, like the Spanish say, hasta woman~ana.

Obviously you have a co-womyn-ding ability to communicate but please note the proper spelling for future reference.

How can this go on for five pages? Please someone ask another question.

First of all, I'm a big kidder so the first question was a joke. How did you guys miss that, you must have had a bad game last night.

Second, we all wear v-neck shirts (high school refs) because of the NFHS. We all wear black pants and black shoes because of the NFHS. We call a "push" instead of "over the back" because of NFHS. If they add a line about using "man" vs. "person" in the rule book, we have to adhear.

Third, Bob Knight is a poster child for NOT doing what he's told to do. People have become a lot less tolerant of personalities like his. If the NFHS hands down a standard, you'd do better to comply. Please, spare me the comments about conforming and civil disobedience. :)

Luther:

You will quickly learn if you haven't already that we are a pretty tight knit bunch around here and when a newbie comes in and starts bashing the integrety of the forum (although you may have did it in jest) you are in for a response. So don't be surprized that posters replied as they did. Although this forum is a huge source of info we do have fun once in a while and that is what this post has "mutated" into. BTW welcome to the forum.

Has the whole world gone MAD????

NO

I choose to find a little giggle when ever possible to brighten my day, and man, this has been great.

Life is very short, ask that to the 13 year old player who dropped dead that we all read about on this forum!!

Jeeeeez! If I knew this post would go on for five pages, I would have asked Brad for some royalties. :p

Two thumbs up
 

I tuned out of this post due to its degeneration into puns and other silly stuff (what? here!?), but I am glad I got back on just for Barry's post. That's worth printing and saving.

Let's go for 6
 

I would have told the coach to read a dictionary, not the NFHS rule book. Technically, every player on the court is a man, if you ask Daniel Webster. I belive definition 4 b covers it. If a girl basketball player isn't a man, we better rewrite the dictionary.


"4 a : one of the distinctive objects moved by each player in various board games b : one of the players on a team"