In a game the other night a minor scuffle arose with some words exchanged and minor pushing and shuffing after a routine whistle. No technicals were assessed although possibly could have been. One coach immediately took out one of the offending players and demanded that a player from the other team who also pushed be taken out. There were only 18 seconds to go in the half. I asked the other coach to take the player off the court and the coach refused. He said he hadn't done anything wrong. He admitted he retaliated after the other player did something. I indicated I wanted him out for the remainder of the half and was not assessing a foul. He continued to state that he did not have to remove him and that there was no rule saying he had to. I told him I wanted to keep something else from happening or to give a technical and to diffuse the situation. He finally relented but I realized I was not sure if I could make him remove the player by the rules particularly without assessing a foul etc. By the way we talked to both coaches to start the second half and things went ok., Any thoughts? Thanks>

If they pushed and shoved they're should have been technicals.... Thats a fight. Anytime someone says there could have been or should have been a tech. i stop listening becasue you should have taken care of business. You cant demand that a player be removed. Something that coaches appreciate is when you tell them that a player is in trouble. I had a kid snap back at me one night on a call I made. I nodded my head to acknowlege him and jogged off to report the foul. I came back down to his coach and said
"Might wanna check on 33 coach, he's gunna get in trouble if he keeps it up". coach didnt ask a word said thanks man and turned to his bench. After the first free throw well I'll be sub at the table and 33 is jogging off the court asking what he did. Coach chewed his but for running his mouth. Ask Hawks Coach, he probably really appreciates it when referees tell him his players are at the end of their rope and might get a technical.

Now in your situation you either have a pair of T's or you ignore A's coach.

I had a situation friday night. Two players started talking trash to each other on the post play. I looked to see where the ball was and popped my whistle walked up between them and very politly told them that if they kept it up both of them would get a technical foul and likely be on the bench. I said it quiet enough for both to hear. Both coaches recognized the situation and hollard out to me they want to sub em. I dont think either player ever came back into the game.

Its all about the situation. You cant tell a coach to sub a player out but you can strongly suggest before a player gets a T. But if your situation happened as you described they're should have been a T on each player. Not necessarily ejecttion for fighting. However you could justify it as one if it would make the game better.

ace is correct. You can't force a coach to remove a player in such a situation.

If the situation was so bad that you felt that strongly, then it sounds to me like technical fouls should have been called. Use the tools that are available to you. Don't try to make some up.

I am being nice.
 

I agree you cannot make him, but just give the coach two choices. Either remove the player or I give him a T for conduct purposes.

You are doing him a favor, if he cannot get the hint, he cannot complain when you take action. ;)

Peace

I wouldn't advise giving the coach that type of ultimatum.

You do not have to advice anything. But it works. Because I will make sure the player sits the next game. ;)

Peace

Technically speaking....
 

JRutledge...

Think about it.

You can threaten the coach with a player T if he is not removed. Now you have become entrenched in a power struggle and by rule after you issue the first T on the player s/he, by rule, STILL does not have to leave the game.

This is NOT the way I would handle this. Either you have the T's on one or both of the players initially or it was not severe enough to whack them. If the latter is the case, you will look very vindictive if you threaten a "T" defacto.

My reply was to the original poster, since he asked about the play.

You can suggest the coach remove the player, We do it in football from time to time. But you can't make him remove him and you can't blackmail him into doing it.

It's bad business and hopefully, vawils want ever consider doing it.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 19th, 2004 at 02:42 PM]

Re: Technically speaking....
 

He will have to leave the game if a rule that the situation was a fight. He will have to leave if I rule the actions as a Flagrant Technical foul. There is no power struggle when I am giving a coach an option to accomplish the same thing without me having to throw the kid out of the game officially. If he wants the state not to know about the situation, and have his kid for the next game, he has a simple choice.

You have a right to your opinion. But so do I and many others I know. I know a lot of officials that "recommend" removal of players and the coaches adhere to the "recommendation." Becuase if the state find out about the actions, they are "guilty." It is not an issue of who was right and who was wrong, they <b>will</b> miss the next game at that level or 10 days, which ever comes first and might miss more based on other actions or what the state feels is proper. And who said it was an expost facto ruling? We have a dead ball. We are removing the players from the game. If I want to I can report the situation as a fight or just have them come out of the game after talking to my partners. No different than any other T or situation that needs some communication.

Peace

Re: Re: Technically speaking....
 

JRutledge

I agree with the issue of the consequnces for the player as a result of the Flagrant (it is typical for most state associations). HOWEVER; My points are...

1. Once you have asked the coach to remove the player and he says no, what rules support you to force the coach to take the player out?

2. NOW, after asking the coach to remove the player and he refused, you issue the Flagrant T. If the player's actions warranted a Flagrant T, call it before having contact with the coach.

3. You demanded that the coach take the player out and when the coach refused, you issued the Flagrant. Does this seem like good game management? (Looks like a power struggle to me)

IF I am that coach I am writing a letter to the state association indicating that you escalated the siuation. You asked me to have a player leave and when I disagreed with your request you abused your authority.

Never can think of a problem.
 

I will say this. This type of game management is attributed to many officials that have much more clout than I do. This is commom for veteran officials to use this from time to time in basketball and in other sports like football. It works because the coach realizes that if we pull the trigger or if we had pulled the trigger, it would not have been a good thing for his team. Of course it is up to the situation and the official to do something in this case. But if the coach wants to not adhere to the warning, then I will just not worry about all the leeway I was giving and start doing things strictly according the the rules. When I did not call the toe on the box, now I will make an issue out of it. I will not just do it for his team, I will do it for both. Because if you did not want to adhere to the warning, now I will just use every rule to get the situation under control. And the next players that even look like they want to fight will be dealt with accordingly. No warning, no explaination, no rope. Just take care of business and move on. And I have never had a situation where captains or coaches did not get a full understanding of any warning and did not realize the seriousness of the situation after action was taken. You can call it a power struggle or whatever you like. The officials will control the game regardless of what the coaches or the players want. It is up to them if they are going to be apart of the solution or part of the problem.

Peace

Bottom line: coach A obviously has the right to take his player off the floor but he has no business demanding that coach B return the favor. Just tell that to coach A, unless he's a genuine jerk he'll get the message.

Thanks, Dan. I've been itching to post this all day, but my biggest problem with this is the fact that the official wasn't going to remove the player until the opposing coach asked for it. If I haven't made that decision myself, I'm going to ignore A coach's request. I might suggest it to B coach, but I won't demand it on the other coach's request.

Adam

Had this happen the other day
 

I was doing a couple scrimmages at my school on Saturday (K-12 School), and one of them was a 6-8 year old division. I had a jump ball RIGHT in front of me, blow the whistle, do the routine. One of the players from my school decided to throw in an extra elbow after the whistle blew. Considering that this was an 8 year old and that this game wasn't a league game (it was PURE fun), I brought her to the coach (I know her very well) and said "Dwayna, give me a sub." She responded immediately and without question.

Would it REALLY have improved things if I would have T'd her, or ejected her with a flagrant technical? I mean, nobody was hurt, she didn't do it with enough force to hurt anybody (although it was an elbow, granted) - I just advised the coach to let her sit out for the rest of the half and cool off, and avoided a ten-minute drama spiel. It was better for the game.

Re: Had this happen the other day
 

Two observations.
First, with this being a scrim of 6-8 year olds I have no problem with the way you handled the situation. It was the best way and as you say, it was better for the game.
Second, if this had been a HS varsity game there is a different level of play and ability. That player just earned a T at the least or an ejection depending on variables.

Re: Never can think of a problem.
 

JRutledge...

I sincerely hope that none of us have to deal with a coach who is this stubborn, but I want to be prepared. I may be a bit anal here, but I want to clarify this scenerio for myself and others.

Again, you have provided some reasonable information about game management, but you have not referenced any rules that support the procedure you initially indicated that you would use in your original response.

I have noticed, in this latest response, that you have backed off from assessing the flagrant AFTER the coach refused to sub for his player, but you indicate that you will now strictly enforce rules for the remainder of the game and be on high alert for potential fights.

Believe it or not, I agree that approaching the coaches and "requesting" them to remove the involved players is good game management. What I disagree with is the decision to issue a flagrant Tech AFTER the coach doesn't heed the warning.

Just curious, can you cite a rule I can use to justify demanding the coach remove his player from the game in this situation (without it being a Flagrant foul or a 2nd T)?

Re: Had this happen the other day
 

I had a very similiar situation at the 7th grade level (Weekend tournament). Approximately 2 minutes left in a 3-point game, scramble for loose ball, two opposing players get into held ball situation. I whistle as I am closing in and BAM! The smaller player swings an elbow into the chest of the other player in a "get off me" gesture. I instantaneously WHACK her for the dead ball contact.

As the FT's are administered I am thinking I should have just warned her. Then her coach calls to me for an explaination. He had been quiet throughout the game, so I figured this would be uneventful. As I finished telling him what I saw, he turned to his player (the offender) and sternly asked her, "Do you see why I tell you to stay in control?" He then turned to thank me for making the call. I did notice the the offender apologized to the "victim".

No more Mr. Nice Guy.
 

If you need a rule to justify everything you do, then that is your first mistake. I am giving you a way to handle a situation without throwing kids out and having to justify something on black and white side of the rules, this will not work for you.

I did not back off of anything. I said that this is what I would do and if the coach does not accomidate, then I have some options for that coach. I am not talking about enforcing rules just for a fight, but then any contact that I might have passed on, gets called. Plain and simple.

Again, if you need a citation to justify everything you do on the court, then you will have more problems in my opinion. Not because using the rules is wrong, but there are many ways to justify handling situations without any reference to a single rule. There are situations about handling coaches and what to say or not to say on this board right now. If the coach is stupid enough to not get the hint or take the advice, then he has put the ball in the court of my partners and I to call the game. If he plays ball, then we act like nothing happen. No different if I or my partners have warned a coach about his behavior toward us. After being warned and not taking the hint, that next time he steps out the box, you get him. No Mr. Nice Guy. No giving more rope, like we did earlier, just get him. Because I know that many official do their best to try not call Ts and try to talk players and coaches out of situations. If they do not want to listen or they want to complain, then I have a whistle that will solve all those problems. ;)

Peace

Sometimes
 

There is nothing wrong with telling a coach about a player that in you opinion is about to cross the line. I would avoid demanding and try asking. Generally speaking coaches will appreciate your feedback. However there are other coaches that will try the power struggle issue. Personally I have used it at times and have received mixed results. Like most preventive officiating sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. One thing for sure if I decided not to give the T, that player or those players will have my attention for the next few minutes until they get a handle on their emotions. Like most preventive officiating there is no cure all that will work in all stiuations but the main thing is to address the issue quickly because if you don't call attention to the problem it will only get worse before it gets better. The last thing we want to do is to toss a player but if that is what the situation calls for then so be it. Sometimes we have an opportunity to handle it in other ways but sometimes our cards have already been dealt and so we do what we have to do!! It is all part of the experience factor and we need to try various approaches to tough situations and learn what works and develop our own style of officiating. When I was young I was confrontational and that worked for me but as I got older I have mellowed and now that works for me. I believe that what was done can work with some coaches and players but for others, well, they are difficult to deal with and will always be that way!

Related to many of the discussions between coaches and officials, I personally think it comes down to communication skills. If the officials come across as weak and non-assertive, an aggressive coach may take that to his advantage. If the officials remain professional and come across assertive in their actions (and communication), there should not be situation where they loose control of the game. Moral: Be quick, decisive, assertive, and professional.

DJ and red,

very nice summary! Thanks.