Ok, NCAA game today. Low skill level. First two minutes of the game. . .

I'm Lead, table-side, in 3-whistle crew. Ball is directly in front of Trail. A5 and B5 jostling for position on low block, my side. Their arms get kind of tangled (but no holding) and after just a second, they separate. While A5's arms are still in the air, B5 turns and throws an elbow into A5's chest.

I come out with. . . intentional. Sigh.

Even as my arms went up, I didn't like it. First foul of the game. As I report the foul, and the coach is telling me how terrible the call is, I tell him it's away from the ball, it's with the elbow, and he did it on purpose. Textbook intentional.

And I still don't like it. I don't even know what I'm looking for here, but thought I'd share it.

What did your partners think?

They both felt the same way I did. Textbook call; maybe not appropriate for the game situation, tho.

Chuck,

When B5 turned, was it his momentum that caused the contact with A5, or did B5 turn and decide (in your judgement) to pop A5 in the chest with is forearm? If it is the former, then a common foul is the correct call, if it is the latter, then an intentional (or flagrant, but that is another thread) personal foul is the correct call. From what you have said about the feedback that you received from your partners, then I think that you made the correct decision.

MTD, Sr.

Attaboy !
 

Good call, Chuck!
Crybaby Coach had to cry to back up his player.

RE: Game sitch - Let it go... it won't get better.
mick

I know that you know...but the KISS method applies here to a degree. Did he INTENTIONALLY bust the boy in the ribs with the bow, or did he just catch him in a funny spot.

Sooners hire Nebraska Coach.
<U>That</U> was intentional!

Spartans beat Wolverines.

That was.....unexpected? :)

Seems to me you're not liking it because the coach didn't like it. Or was it the time of the game that you didn't like? Did it create problems with the coach for the rest of the game?

If you didn't like the call, you probably shouldn't have called it.

Did you make the call too quick, maybe? Nothing wrong with just the closed fist in the air, followed by a small pause before you make the call. Even on an intentional foul. Gives you time to make that final decision.

AND 1!!!

He definitely turned, took a look, and planted it on him. I really do think he did it on purpose.

To answer Tony's question, I didn't like it b/c of the game situation. Less than two minutes in, and it was the first foul of the game. It's one of those situations where the experienced guys say, "Don't wake up the coach". Well, that call is obviously going to wake him up at that point of the game.

I think it was probably defendable either way (common or intentional), and so in that particular circumstance, the common foul might've been more appropriate. Wonder if I can get the game tape. . .

i ntentional
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
[B]The key here is "low skill level". You have to factor that into any call you make in that game.

Re: intentional
 

The key here is "low skill level". You have to factor that into any call you make in that game.

[/B][/QUOTE]What does the skill level of the players have to do with whether you're gonna call it an intentional foul, or not? :confused:

An elbow is an elbow at any skill level,age level, etc.

I know exactly what you mean, Chuck. I had the same thing in a game Friday night. A girl deliberately reached behind her and slapped a girl going up the court. I called intentional. Was it? Yes. Was it a good call for that game and that time in the game, probably not.

You did the right thing. It may have been the first foul of the game, but it also sent a message to all of the players that cheap shots are not going to be tolerated today.

Re: Re: intentional
 

What does the skill level of the players have to do with whether you're gonna call it an intentional foul, or not? :confused:

An elbow is an elbow at any skill level,age level, etc. [/B][/QUOTE]

Then why even mention "low skill level"? He is the one struggling with the call, not me.

Chuck,
While I am not even close to your level I would have done the same thing and have, at the JV level. Also I remember a few years ago watching a game on TV with New Mexico and somebody. One of the first fouls of the game was similar and they called flagrant and threw the player out! Did not matter to them when it was called

Re: Re: Re: intentional
 

Then why even mention "low skill level"? He is the one struggling with the call, not me. [/B][/QUOTE]Do you ever answer a question?

I thought that you might have had a point to make. Apparently not!

Chuck,

Ok, you've had this 'sitch' happen that your a little unsure about. You've gotten feedback made some decisions on how you'll handle the same thing next time. Now it's 'next time' and the same exact sitch--or at least as exact as can be happens: What's your call now?

UConn/NC
 

The point is that when he mentioned "low skill level", he apparently was factoring that in his head which we do as officials either consciously or unconsciously when we referee different types (skill level, age level, etc.) of games. This concept apparently was too subtle for you to understand. Comprende usted?

The point is that when he mentioned "low skill level", he apparently was factoring that in his head which we do as officials either consciously or unconsciously when we referee different types (skill level, age level, etc.) of games. This concept apparently was too subtle for you to understand. Comprende usted?
[/B][/QUOTE]What I do comprehend is that you are completely avoiding answering my question. You also very nicely deleted the specifics, so let me repeat them for you:
- You stated that you have to factor "low skill level" into any call that you make in that game.
- My question was, and is "what do the skill levels of the players have to do with whether you're gonna call an intentional foul or not?".

Do you have an answer for that? I'd certainly like to know why the same play- a deliberately thrown elbow- could be an intentional foul at one level, and not an intentional foul at a different level. Do you use the same reasoning for an elbow that might catch the an opponent in the face too?

YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!
 

I see JR thinks he is Tom Cruise and Willie is Jack Nicholson.

Peace

Re: YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!
 

Yeah, if Tom Cruise fell out of an ugly tree, and hit every branch on the way down! :D

Weighing in late
 

Guess this has been tossed around abit already, buyt I'll add my dos centavos.

I often read of refs worrying about a late T or INT deciding a close game. This is the opposite. It is early, plenty of time for teams to recover and "let the players decide the game." I think you send a great message to the players. It does seem a bit out of place as a first foul. But you saw what you saw, and if it was as you describe, the call is solid. Hopefully you can review the tape and determine that what you initially saw is backed up on review.

I also agree that this is a case where a (very slight) delay before signalling the INT might pay just to gather your thoughts and be sure.