I was just thinking about how busy this forum is, especially during this time of year. There are over 25 threads that are active just today. I read a lot of boards but none are as active at this.

In any case, it got me thinking. There's a lot of information being passed. As anything that you've ever read on this board gotten you trouble? Have you ever read an interpretation here, used it in a game, and all kinds of crap happened because of it?

I'm not even asking if what you were told was wrong. I'm looking for rules that you applied properly and it still got you in the "soup."

Okay, I'll start, just to give everyone an idea about what I'm talking about.

We've discussed many times that an intentional foul should be called if a coach is yelling "Foul him! Foul him!" We were even told that at our state rules clinic this year. However, it just isn't accepted in my area. It's discussed at clinics and it happens at games and it just isn't called.

When it was a POE about 4 years ago, I made this call, and caught all kinds of hell for it. It was later suggested that I not make it again. I haven't based solely on the coach's words alone. I rpobably never will unless it becomes consistent among other officials.

No... but I used a comeback from this board last night that helped me quiet a coach without either of us losing our tempers....

Thanks to all for your input. Everyday I'm getting a little better(fans don't think so, but fans know stats we know rules)

Interrupted Dribble
 

I've have had discussions here regarding the OOB play scenarios where the player directs the ball inbounds as he's approaching the OOB line and never agreed with the interpretation that it was an interrupted dribble. I was finally swayed since it was pretty overwhelming against me. I posed the question to our state rules interpreter just the other day and was told an interrupted dribble cannot be an intentional act that it must be a fumble or miscue of some sort, which is the way I always understood it until the discussions here. Hasn't happened in a game but my question was directly due to questions on here that changed my opinion of how to rule on the play.

Mregor

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and YES!!!!
 

Now I will say that I cannot think of anything that I did in a game directly off of something that I read here. But I have asked other officials that have done things and a resounding, "THERE IS NO WAY I WOULD DO OR CALL THAT!!!"

I even had an extensive conversation with a very well thought of official and basically dismissed this board and others like it because of some of the things that are talked about here. And that person got on me about even listening to many that take positions on this board.

So yes I come here and enjoy many of the discussions that we have. But I have to admit that I always filter stuff that people say to an "area thing" or what might work for them, will not work for me philosophy.

Peace

Naturally, curious--what was it you used?

Re: Yes, yes, yes, yes, and YES!!!!
 

So this 'well thought of official' would recommend what (?) for officials to improve themselves, nothing? Did he offer some alternatives?

I like your approach JR, which I think most of us do, which is to use some pretty good 'filters' many times. I wish we had this forum available in my early years. Just another tool to use, which, like any other tool can be used properly or not.

I used the "I only call the fouls not count them." When she had 5 vs 1 on the count....She was only up by 20 at the point of this conversation

Re: Re: Yes, yes, yes, yes, and YES!!!!
 

Most officials I know never come here or to any internet site to become a better official. Let us make that clear. But that is what camps, publications, officiating socials, talking to your mentor, watching veteran officials, watching less experienced officials, watching TV games are all for. I personally do not know many officials that have reached the "big time" did so by coming here on their way to the top. He did not suggest that himself, but if others learned officiating by other sources, I am sure we all could do it if we had to. But most of the things I have learned in officiating, had nothing to do with this board. And I have been on the internet almost as long as my career.[/B][/QUOTE]


I agree this is a great place. But I cannot go back to my assignors or fellow officials and associations and reference people here that have no credibility in the area I live. Or with all due respect those here that live in my back yard, when they <b>(including myself here)</b> do not have the same level of respect and admiration that certain officials do where I live. I would hope anyone that reads my post does not go back to their place and quote me on what it takes to officiate. You might get shot or hung like I would if I did the same.:) But this can be a great place to vent, see what guys across the country are doing and see if others agree with your interpretation of the rules and mechanics, but you still have to filter that information.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Yes, yes, yes, yes, and YES!!!!
 

Rut, you've included some suggestions that could easily (it seems to me) be included with listing this discussion board. But you exclude it. In other words: "...camps, publications, officiating socials, talking to your mentor,watching vets, watching less exper. off., watching tv, ..." It seems one could easily have listed: 'participating in relevant discussion boards' with your list and it would fit in just as well as officiating socials and watching tv ballgames. It just seemed like such a blanket statement to say most officials don't come here to become a better official.

It seems to me to be just another tool, certainly not a primary one but nevertheless, another one and certainly one to be use for what it's worth--no more.

I've also seen many posts here of officials asking for advice on how to 'become a better official'. With many replies to those requests, some as I recall by you.

[Edited by davidw on Jan 15th, 2004 at 01:24 PM]

Not sure why this is an issue for you?
 

Of course it is just a tool. But just because you have a screwdriver in the toolbox, does not mean you can never use a wrench every now and then. You might need the wrench and hammer more.


Yes I have. But I also hope and try to direct those to people in their area. We are just giving advice, it is up to their association or mentors to truely mold them into good officials. All I feel we can do here is point them in the right direction. But that does not mean that we can drive them there ourselves.

Peace

Re: Not sure why this is an issue for you?
 

I guess it is an 'issue' with me because I thought that your statement about wanting to be very 'clear' this was not a place to become a better official, may give the wrong impression to some officials who come here to learn and to become better. I completely agree that the final product (a better official) is achieved at a more local level. The pointing in the right direction can be huge--for some. I thought you discounted some of the learning merits of this site a little too much is all.

One of the best things about discussion boards is that you talk with individuals who have experiences that you haven't had. That can be a tremendous help when you're faced with a similiar issue. It's basically a "virtual association meeting." Many officials, like mick for example, do not have the opportunity to attend meetings and clinics with fellow officials. They don't have the opportunity to discuss what happened in someone's game or dissect a ruling or play. Also, a big plus is that you can have your virtual lacoal clinic any time you want to. Just sit down at the computer.

Many of the officials who avoid these boards could gain a lot from them, like the 2 state interpreters in Dubby's state, who don't understand 10-2-2.

I don't know that I can recall a direct correlation from this board to the floor. I do however take the discussions we have here to some of the guys I work with. I even bring some things up in the local meeting, mostly at the local watering hole meeting after the meeting at the school :). It is a super area to get interps from others and like rut said and we all know, you have to do what your assignor/commissioner says....and I even found out that sometimes they are the same interpretation, like the injured player situation.....damn I still hate that LOL :D

Just filter it, that is all.
 

Honestly David, it can and it can't. It just comes down to how you use it.

David, it does not matter what Tony, mick, Mark(Sr), JR, Rut or Chuck and Yaw says, if none of us live in the area the person reading our posts does or if they do not belong to the same association that we do. Tony is a State Final Official, but honestly that means nothing in my area. Hell, depending on who is a State Final official in my state, they might not have the general respect and admiration for those that are in my state. It is a great accomplishment, but you have to look at the bigger picture. There are officials that have no titles or no "state" accomplishments and are much more accomplished and respected than those that are State Rules Interpreters and State Clinicians. If someone reads my posts or what people say about me, you might think I am the most hated official on the internet. Go outside of the board and talk to guys that have worked with me, you would never get that impression at all. This coming year I will speak at a baseball clinic, football clinic and basketball clinic all in 2004. I will speak at a basketball meeting in a couple of weeks and am a board member in football for the second term. But listen to folks here, I am clueless and stupid and any other name that folks come up with. But I would not have been asked to help run associations and speak at clinics that only very well respected officials (not including myself, but what I have seen). Even Tony had someone debating what he was saying and he has accomplished much more than most of us have. That is why I say you have to take everything here and filter it. And I would say 95% of what I post here, comes from others that taught me and guided me off this board. Great place to learn, but it might not apply to everyone. :)

Peace

It all comes down to a couple of things.

1) Where are you in your career/experience level/rules knowledge, etc.? If you are really new, you can gain a lot here that you won't necessarily from other places. For one, these guys will put you straight into the book in most cases, rather than just giving you the knowledge of an old hand. And having tried to read the book with no guidance, I can say that it is not so intuitive at first. It becomes much easier with the frame of reference established here. and if you want to go other places for info, advice from this board (just like Ruts) will point you in appropriate directions. some come here without really understanding the value of camps, mentors, etc., and I have seen numerous threads that tell people to use these resources. Those people got a lot out of this board in addition to the info about rules and game situations.

2) What do you want from this board? I see a number of experienced officials that seem to value the exchange of ideas here. I see many new officials that come for guidance. I see some that people that want to push their opinion, and I fall into that category many times as well. I see some that have an axe to grind about a game, and they get zero benefit unless they open their mind. But even as I push forward an opinion, I definitely get insight here that I otherwise would not get. I simply hope to provide a viewpoint that might not otherwise come into play on a board that is mainly officials.

So from my perspective, this is clearly not the be-all and end-all of development for officials, but short of that, it can be what you want it to be.

While I don't find this board nearly as helpful as a good mentor, it's a great place to go to get a variety of opinions and to discuss situations. I think the fact that there is no established pecking order here as there is in a regular association allows us to be exposed to many more points of view. Seeing the many ways that others would handle the situation allows you to analyze it much better, in my opinion, than if you get one guy's authoritative opinion: "this is how we will handle this." While the board isn't the only way or the best way to improve as an official, it certainly helps.

I think the only thing I've used off this baord that hurt, was the snappy comebacks. I haven't tried any of the really snappy ones, but I tried, in all seriousness, a couple different things that backfired. What I mean is, I found a good sentense that I thought would help improve a situation, and when I used it, it didn't help.

Okay, and now that I think about it, a couple of times, I've known rules cold, and ended up annoying partners, becuase they didn't know them.

I have the same problem.

Only with coaches. :D

Sheez, that's every game! Last night, I called a backcourt violation -- easiest call all evening. Coach is going ballistic because he thinks she needs all three points in the backcourt before it's a violation. And he wonders why his girls never win...

I don't know how many coaches/fans lurk on the site, but I suspect there are quite a few. While the purpose of the site isn't to educate us howlers, its sure taught me a lot.

I used to be the kind of fan and coach you write about here ("over the back", "call it both ways", et al). After coming here and reading the rule books a couple of times, I find I rarely say anything about the officiating of a game.

And, y'know, the funny thing is, I think what I've learned more than anything, is how much judgment and perspective come into play when you make calls. Oh, and, how little you care about what I think. I mean, why waste my time hollering at you if you don't even care.

I'll tell you one thing I haven't learned, though - how to embed the dang smilies in the middle of a post. Can't find a reference to it in the rule book anywhere. (I wish I could put a smilie here.)

:rolleyes: Coach, look on the bottom of this page and click on the word smilies. :) So simple, even a coach can do it. :D

This board may not be as helpful as a personal mentor, but it's definitely a great asset. There have been a couple unusual scenarios posted here that later happened in a game to me. While it may not have changed the way I handled it, it sure was nice to have given some thought to it before it happened in my game. :cool:

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Jan 16th, 2004 at 08:47 AM]

The problem with boards like this is that some officials may use it as a substitute for studying the rule book and case book, and using common sense. There are many posters who give incorrect rules advice, and an official relying on that could get in trouble. An official who takes the time to study the rules on his own will realize that rules advice from posters like Jenkins or BktBallRef usually is pretty reliable. Guys like Mick seem to have a knack for managing coaches. Some posters, though, are way off base on rules or game management skills. If you believe everything you read on this board, you could get yourself into trouble.

I'm surprised, though, that a good official like BktBallRef went along with the people who blindly recommended calling an intentional foul every time the bench was yelling, "Foul!" Ignoring 40+ years of accepted practice at all levels of the game usually will get you into trouble.

What BBR went with was either the word for word in the POE, or the interpretation of the POE on intentional fouls. POEs frequently happen because rules committees are trying to fix something they don't believe is being correctly enforced. I don' think the advice he got was strictly from this board, although I may be mistaken. I know that in my area, I saw refs call it precisely as BBR did during the year it was a POE. Not all, but some. Never seen it called in that manner since that year.

Also, since I am only 41 and I remember the intentional foul being put into the rules in my adult life, I don't believe that BBR ignored 40+ years of practice with respect to intentional fouls :)

From the POE in the 2000/2001 rulebook- <i>"Acts that <b>must</b> be deemed intentional include when coach/player says 'watch,we're going to foul'."</i>

From the POE in the 2000/2001 rulebook- "Acts that must be deemed intentional include when coach/player says 'watch,we're going to foul'

A Veteran once told me:

If a Coach is yelling "Foul, Foul, Foul"...it is different than actually telling you he is going to foul. Therefore, you don't necessarily have to call the intentional foul.

Heck, it could be some kind of play..."Fowl, Fowl, Fowl" like "bird, bird, bird"...;)

RD

Checks and Balances!!!!
 

What I like about this site are the checks and balances. NOONE can come here with something crazy without being questioned.

For the most part, everything is tied to the rulebook.

I'm in my 2nd year of reffing and have not met a fellow Ref in my association that knows about this site. If they only knew!!!!

Personally this site has been the most important tool for me!

THANKS!!!!

And Coach, as expressed before, we really appreciate this other viewpoint. Please keep it up.

I didn't ignore anything, Stan. Our state officiating director stood before us, covered the POE, and told us that's how it would be called in NC.

Who am I to ignore him?

I was I to know that I was one of the few he wouldn't?

Just giving you a little crap. We got the same POE talk at our state rules meeting. The POE makes a lot of sense - intentionally breaking the rules should not be advantageous. But even a blind man could see that POE was a radical departure from years of accepted practice by officials and coaches.

I have found a lot of value from this board. There are a couple of things that have helped or added value.
1-It is a great way to study the rules, as I try to look up each question and get my own answer before I read other answers and views. This is more interesting than just reading the book.
2-It makes me think and it forces me to make decisions. Many issues and questions are brought up here with no lack of rules, opinions and experience provided. I am not too worried about majority or minority on an issue, but use these threads to continue to fine tune my style and philsophy. I examine, study, ask local mentors and then decide how I will handle each situation or enforce the rule.
3-I enjoy the passion and emotion, that some officials bring to the board. While some may find it annoying, I like the fact that so many care about the game, the rules and officiatng.
4=It is an interesting way to find others with this common interest, learn of other ways to do things, e.g., associations, evaluators, getting games, etc.
5=And the list goes on. It is an aidm and only an aid, for me. Nothing has gotten me in trouble but as I mentioned I try to use my mentors here before trying thingds.
My appreciaton to those that reply to me, the patience in answering my questions and for the info I get.

Excellent
 

I live in a very rural area and 85% of my games are worked with the same partner. We have no association or contact with other officials except for an occasional game. I just joined this forum and I think it is an excellent way for officials of all abilities to gain knowledge to become a better official. Like all walks of life, we meet a lot of different kinds of people and some people are really into their egoes. Any official that would not recommend this web site to another official is on an ego trip and arrogant and needs an attitude adjustment. Keep up the good work!! Good luck to all the young officials that are trying to improve their lot. This is one of many sources of information that it takes to "be all that you can be!"