I wonder if the rules committee has ever discussed changing the three second count to more than three seconds because it seems that the rule interpetation has evolved to be something other than the rule. Next question is what is the right number? Three? Four....? I don't think that three is a reasonable number and seldom see that interpetation.
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Hmmm, DJ, after reading this post and your thread about the 10-second count during FTs, I think you just don't like to count. :)
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I can say that for me any 3 second call that I make is more like 10,15 or 20 seconds. Unless I am looking through the ball into the lane, Ive got more to watch for than some kid camping out in it.
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yes
Chuck, I don't like to redundantly count!!! It seems like the other numbers in the rule book have real value but this one no longer applies.
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Picnic and a campout
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That is definitely camping. Many teams can't even hold on to the ball for 20 seconds. Do you talk to your players during this 10-15-20 seconds? If you know it is 20, you surely know it is well past 3. I don't call very many but I have neve seen anyone in the key for even 10 seconds - probably because I call the violation well before that. Honestly I will go several games without needing to call that violation.... "Get out of the key." usually works except for the slowest of players. |
Trouble
A few years ago my partner and I went to a very small town for a game. This team had a boys game that was out of town on the same night and as the teams were warming up I turned to my partner and said, "Don, we are in for a long night?" He said, "What is the problem?" I had been looking up in the stands and because the boys had an away game in this small town almost all of the fans were mom's(women). Every time down the court we heard the preverbial "three seconds, foul, traveling - three seconds, foul, traveling!" It was a great play by play of our officiating! I've been acousted about 20 times after games where someone has come out of the stands after a game and wanted a piece of me(always verbal never physical) in the 2000 games I've worked and 18 out of the twenty have been mothers. You've got to love that primordial instinct!!
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I am SOOOO not willing to go there, DJ. LOL
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Re: Picnic and a campout
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Try this the next time you are going to watch a HS game, bring a stopwatch. Time the players in the lane and I think you are going to be in for a surprise. |
Coach loves the 3 second call
If the officials would call it more often, it would make my life easier when I'm coaching middle school players. Spacing and movement are often foreign to them, but a goo 3 second call can wake them up. Hey, if coaches think they can do your jobs, why not help us do ours? ;-)
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I don't live to make 3 seconds my first call of the game. Especially for the kids. Because that coach will be demanding one called at the other end ASAP. Then it becomes a 3 second-fest. No thanks!
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Well..if so many refs just don't want to call it then why not either get rid of it, or expand the time?
I think that was the point that DJ was trying to make. |
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Call it once early, at both ends, and you'll clean it up for the rest of the game. There are coaches who will tell their players to stay in the lane until the officials finally call it the first time. Quote:
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I'm with you on this one. I think it is a bit outdated as well. Have not heard whether the Federation is or has experimented with this rule. Anyone else? As far as the right number. Off the top of my head, 5 seconds seems like it would fit better. It falls in the time perimeters of our other time limits. Emphasis I think would have to be given to call at the 5 second mark not 2-3 seconds later like many of us seem to do now with the current 3 sec. limit. Coaches, would it change your coaching and play set-ups much to have it at a longer limit such as 5 seconds? |
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Call it once early, at both ends, and you'll clean it up for the rest of the game. [/B][/QUOTE] BBR, Yes I have had this happen "your way" and it goes smoothly but more often than not the coach loses focus on what HIS PLAYERS should be doing and thinks he should be coaching me! D) |
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Do you agree that most experience officials call most 3 second lane violations only after a good 4 to 5 seconds passes? If that is true, why not increase the limit to 5 seconds? I think emphasis would have to be given: "There, we've increased the limit to 5 seconds, NOW CALL IT!" And there exits the possibility that with more '5 second' lane violations called the likelyhood of a decrease in rough play at the post would result? |
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As a coach I could care less if it is at 3 seconds, 5 seconds or 10 seconds. I'll adjust, but whatever it is just call it. |
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Let's say we change the rule to 5 seconds. Do you really think people are suddenly going to change and call it strictly by the rule? I don't. It's the old adage. Give'em an inch and they'll take a foot. All changing the rule to 5 seconds would do is allow the players to be in longer and longer before it's called. Quote:
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Do we use advantage/disadvantage on other violations as well and if not how come? You said that the rule could be tweaked, well if you don't increase the time, then how else could it be tweaked? |
Call it early
Call it early, I agree as long as you call it the same late. I think this has potential for another thread!!
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But no, I do not call every travel or palming violation I see. I call advantage/disadvantage. I call the obvious. |
Last night
In last nights game, I did not call three seconds but my partner had 4 three second calls. I have 27 years of experience he has 1 1/2 years of experience. Everyone in the gym, players, coaches and fans thought they were all good calls. He was consistant in his interpetation of the rule. He also called a nice game and handled himself well in a 1 point game. All this gave credibility to his calls. I'm sure his interpetations on a lot of these issues will mature because I gave him this website to add to his itinerary. One of his comments after the game may hit home for some. He was a coach and a good one for quite a few years and he said now that he is a referee he can't believe how tired he gets after a nights work. We work in an area where we will do both the JV and Varsity game and mostly 2 person. Physical conditioning of officials, aha, another thread! This one may hurt!!
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
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True,true,true! and who can blame them? |
Re: Call it early
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by davidw
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I usually don't count 3 seconds. It's just a matter of "He's been in there too long." The longer the time, the harder it would be to estimate. 3 seconds is good. It gives us freedom to easily make the call or not, as needed to clean up the game, or let the flow continue. |
Re: Last night
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Re: Re: Last night
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Re: Re: Last night
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
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This sounds like a great pre-game snack! :eek: |
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Peer pressure
I 'll take a diet coke and don't try any peer pressure on me because I finally can handle that, too! Just one more?
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For me, three seconds was low on the priority list of calls.
When I am officiating off-ball, which in my experience, is where most three second calls come from, I was more concerned with watching for illegal screens and players battling for post position. My focus is more toward these things than looking for somebody camping in the lane. |
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Most of my 3 second calls are going to come when I'm at lead, a low post player is camped out in the lane, and I nail him when the ball is passed to him. From C, I have off ball responsibilities mostly. Most players on the weak side are just flashing or cutting through the lane. Rarely do I see 3 seconds from C. Don't take be offended but I don't have a priority list of calls. If I can't watch a play, discern what rule is being broken, whatever that rule is, I don't have any business being out there. |
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I think we hear the call for 3 seconds and think this is something we are just ignoring. I do not agree with that. Many times at least the varsity levels and up, the players are not even in the lane for 2 seconds, let alone three. Most of the players I see are moving in and out of the lane constantly. Unless they are trying to get the ball, they are going to move to set a screen or to help get the ball on the perimenter. I think sometimes we get caught up in the fans and the crys for this call. The last 4 games I did there was someone in the stands screaming for "3 seconds" and we had rebound after rebound after rebound. I think we pay more attention to this because of the crys. Not whether this is a legitimate call that needs to be made that often. One of the reasons I have not called one in about 3 years.
Peace |
I like 3 seconds as 3 seconds. It usually takes a bit more, but I agree with Tony that if you make it 5, the calls will be even fewer and farther between. Like the 10 second FT count - I think that if a player consistently took 20 seconds, you would have a call. 11 seconds, you probably aren't counting that close. with all of the counting except B/c, it seems that the extreme violation gets punished not the strictest interp.
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At 12 seconds. Coach yelled to player, "I told you somebody was going to call it sooner or later." :) My first ever!! :D |
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Peace |
One of the times you see 3 seconds most often is when a player anticipates a teammate taking a shot and it doesn't happen. A1 either makes the pass himself from the post or sees A2 catch the ball in position for a shot. A1 hustles into position and gets a body on B1. Meanwhile something else happened. A2 fumbles the ball. B's defense rotates more quickly than anticipated. A2 has an attack of conscious because of earlier missed shot. (I never actually saw this happen) A1 is still there, working hard, until the whistle. Coach A: "Good job, A1! C'mon, A2, you gotta shoot the ball!"
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Good Call
Another time when the 3 sec call is appropriate is when a post player has been moving through the lane and then calls for the ball and then after receiving the pass in the lane makes his move to the basket(when 3 sec cannot be called) and then kicks it out instead of taking the shot. This is a very solid application of a play that supports the intent of the rule. This single play constitutes 75% of my three second calls. The defense has collapsed and by them having to cover the lane because that person has been allowed in the lane for the alloted time it frees up the perimeter and creates an obvious advantage situation for the offensive team. would like to clarify the fact that when I refer to him it could be her as a player or official. Sorry if I sound sexist in my posts, I assure you it is unintentional. There are some truly great female referree's and I have had the priviledge of working a state championship game with one of them.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach
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WOW! What a concept!:) I never heard of such a thing. The same guy a few years later had a son playing in the youth league, age 10-12 or so. He said that he had advised his son, "When you see that you're not hitting, stop shooting and get the ball to somebody else." After the game one night the son said, "Dad, by the time I realized I wasn't hitting, the game was over.":D |
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You've NEVER seen a male player get postion in the lane because he thought a teammate was about to shoot, and then, the shot didn't go up? |
Surely I exagerate!
It was obviously an overstatement, but in my years coaching boys, I had more players who never saw a shot they couldn't make. With girls, my best shooters will at times stop shooting no matter how open they are if they miss a couple early.
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