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DJ Tue Jan 13, 2004 02:37pm

I wonder if the rules committee has ever discussed changing the three second count to more than three seconds because it seems that the rule interpetation has evolved to be something other than the rule. Next question is what is the right number? Three? Four....? I don't think that three is a reasonable number and seldom see that interpetation.

ChuckElias Tue Jan 13, 2004 04:04pm

Hmmm, DJ, after reading this post and your thread about the 10-second count during FTs, I think you just don't like to count. :)

RecRef Tue Jan 13, 2004 04:11pm

I can say that for me any 3 second call that I make is more like 10,15 or 20 seconds. Unless I am looking through the ball into the lane, I’ve got more to watch for than some kid camping out in it.

DJ Tue Jan 13, 2004 04:36pm

yes
 
Chuck, I don't like to redundantly count!!! It seems like the other numbers in the rule book have real value but this one no longer applies.

DownTownTonyBrown Tue Jan 13, 2004 04:37pm

Picnic and a campout
 
Quote:

Originally posted by RecRef
I can say that for me any 3 second call that I make is more like 10,15 or 20 seconds. Unless I am looking through the ball into the lane, I’ve got more to watch for than some kid camping out in it.
10, 15, 20 Yikes!!!

That is definitely camping.

Many teams can't even hold on to the ball for 20 seconds.

Do you talk to your players during this 10-15-20 seconds?

If you know it is 20, you surely know it is well past 3.

I don't call very many but I have neve seen anyone in the key for even 10 seconds - probably because I call the violation well before that. Honestly I will go several games without needing to call that violation.... "Get out of the key." usually works except for the slowest of players.

DJ Tue Jan 13, 2004 05:01pm

Trouble
 
A few years ago my partner and I went to a very small town for a game. This team had a boys game that was out of town on the same night and as the teams were warming up I turned to my partner and said, "Don, we are in for a long night?" He said, "What is the problem?" I had been looking up in the stands and because the boys had an away game in this small town almost all of the fans were mom's(women). Every time down the court we heard the preverbial "three seconds, foul, traveling - three seconds, foul, traveling!" It was a great play by play of our officiating! I've been acousted about 20 times after games where someone has come out of the stands after a game and wanted a piece of me(always verbal never physical) in the 2000 games I've worked and 18 out of the twenty have been mothers. You've got to love that primordial instinct!!

Adam Tue Jan 13, 2004 06:39pm

I am SOOOO not willing to go there, DJ. LOL

RecRef Tue Jan 13, 2004 09:16pm

Re: Picnic and a campout
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown


10, 15, 20 Yikes!!!

Many teams can't even hold on to the ball for 20 seconds.

Do you talk to your players during this 10-15-20 seconds?

If you know it is 20, you surely know it is well past 3.

I don't call very many but I have neve seen anyone in the key for even 10 seconds - probably because I call the violation well before that. Honestly I will go several games without needing to call that violation.... "Get out of the key." usually works except for the slowest of players. [/B]



Try this the next time you are going to watch a HS game, bring a stopwatch. Time the players in the lane and I think you are going to be in for a surprise.

CYO Butch Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:04am

Coach loves the 3 second call
 
If the officials would call it more often, it would make my life easier when I'm coaching middle school players. Spacing and movement are often foreign to them, but a goo 3 second call can wake them up. Hey, if coaches think they can do your jobs, why not help us do ours? ;-)

wizard Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:54pm

I don't live to make 3 seconds my first call of the game. Especially for the kids. Because that coach will be demanding one called at the other end ASAP. Then it becomes a 3 second-fest. No thanks!

gsf23 Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:58pm

Well..if so many refs just don't want to call it then why not either get rid of it, or expand the time?

I think that was the point that DJ was trying to make.

BktBallRef Wed Jan 14, 2004 01:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by wizard
I don't live to make 3 seconds my first call of the game. Especially for the kids. Because that coach will be demanding one called at the other end ASAP. Then it becomes a 3 second-fest. No thanks!
Not necessarily.

Call it once early, at both ends, and you'll clean it up for the rest of the game.

There are coaches who will tell their players to stay in the lane until the officials finally call it the first time.

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
Well..if so many refs just don't want to call it then why not either get rid of it, or expand the time?

I think that was the point that DJ was trying to make.

It hasn't been eliminated because each year, rough play is a POE. If we allow players to post up in the lane without any restrictions, rough play will continue to be a problem.

davidw Wed Jan 14, 2004 01:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DJ
I wonder if the rules committee has ever discussed changing the three second count to more than three seconds because it seems that the rule interpetation has evolved to be something other than the rule. Next question is what is the right number? Three? Four....? I don't think that three is a reasonable number and seldom see that interpetation.
DJ,

I'm with you on this one. I think it is a bit outdated as well. Have not heard whether the Federation is or has experimented with this rule. Anyone else?

As far as the right number. Off the top of my head, 5 seconds seems like it would fit better. It falls in the time perimeters of our other time limits. Emphasis I think would have to be given to call at the 5 second mark not 2-3 seconds later like many of us seem to do now with the current 3 sec. limit.

Coaches, would it change your coaching and play set-ups much to have it at a longer limit such as 5 seconds?

wizard Wed Jan 14, 2004 01:14pm

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by BktBallRef [/B]
Not necessarily.

Call it once early, at both ends, and you'll clean it up for the rest of the game.

[/B][/QUOTE]

BBR,
Yes I have had this happen "your way" and it goes smoothly but more often than not the coach loses focus on what HIS PLAYERS should be doing and thinks he should be coaching me! D)

davidw Wed Jan 14, 2004 01:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by wizard
I don't live to make 3 seconds my first call of the game. Especially for the kids. Because that coach will be demanding one called at the other end ASAP. Then it becomes a 3 second-fest. No thanks!
Not necessarily.

Call it once early, at both ends, and you'll clean it up for the rest of the game.

There are coaches who will tell their players to stay in the lane until the officials finally call it the first time.

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
Well..if so many refs just don't want to call it then why not either get rid of it, or expand the time?

I think that was the point that DJ was trying to make.

It hasn't been eliminated because each year, rough play is a POE. If we allow players to post up in the lane without any restrictions, rough play will continue to be a problem.

BktBallRef,

Do you agree that most experience officials call most 3 second lane violations only after a good 4 to 5 seconds passes? If that is true, why not increase the limit to 5 seconds?

I think emphasis would have to be given: "There, we've increased the limit to 5 seconds, NOW CALL IT!" And there exits the possibility that with more '5 second' lane violations called the likelyhood of a decrease in rough play at the post would result?

gsf23 Wed Jan 14, 2004 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
It hasn't been eliminated because each year, rough play is a POE. If we allow players to post up in the lane without any restrictions, rough play will continue to be a problem. [/B]
Then why does the 3-second count continually not get called? Why do refs come on here and say that if you call 3-seconds you won't work past junior high. Why do they say they won't call it unless they have been in the lane for 5...7...10 seconds? Why keep a rule in there that apparently very few people are willing to enforce or want to be enforced?

As a coach I could care less if it is at 3 seconds, 5 seconds or 10 seconds. I'll adjust, but whatever it is just call it.

BktBallRef Wed Jan 14, 2004 01:58pm

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
Then why does the 3-second count continually not get called?
I normally see it called when there's an advantage gained. Yes, the rule could be tweaked but it's not going to be eliminated.

Quote:

Why do refs come on here and say that if you call 3-seconds you won't work past junior high.
I've been reading this site for over 3 and a half years and I've never read that.

Quote:

Why do they say they won't call it unless they have been in the lane for 5...7...10 seconds? Why keep a rule in there that apparently very few people are willing to enforce or want to be enforced?
Quite honestly, I don't see that happening. What I do see is it called to strictly when a 5th grade girl is stiing in the lane but has no clue where she's at.

Let's say we change the rule to 5 seconds. Do you really think people are suddenly going to change and call it strictly by the rule? I don't.

It's the old adage. Give'em an inch and they'll take a foot. All changing the rule to 5 seconds would do is allow the players to be in longer and longer before it's called.

Quote:

Originally posted by davidw
BktBallRef,

Do you agree that most experience officials call most 3 second lane violations only after a good 4 to 5 seconds passes? If that is true, why not increase the limit to 5 seconds?

Experienced officials work higher level games. I don't see 3 seconds as a problem at those levels. Experienced officials call 3 seconds when it has an effect on the play.

Quote:

I think emphasis would have to be given: "There, we've increased the limit to 5 seconds, NOW CALL IT!" And there exits the possibility that with more '5 second' lane violations called the likelyhood of a decrease in rough play at the post would result?
I've pointed out above why I don't think 5 seconds would work. Allowing an offensive player to post in the lane for 7 or 8 seconds is an eternity. The defender has no chance and will probably foul before a violation is called.

Quote:

Originally posted by wizard
BBR,
Yes I have had this happen "your way" and it goes smoothly but more often than not the coach loses focus on what HIS PLAYERS should be doing and thinks he should be coaching me!

That's okay. I have a way to handle that too. :)

gsf23 Wed Jan 14, 2004 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
It's the old adage. Give'em an inch and they'll take a foot. All changing the rule to 5 seconds would do is allow the players to be in longer and longer before it's called.
[/B]
The only reason a player would stay in the lane longer than 3 seconds or longer than 5 seconds is because they are allowed to.

Do we use advantage/disadvantage on other violations as well and if not how come?

You said that the rule could be tweaked, well if you don't increase the time, then how else could it be tweaked?

DJ Wed Jan 14, 2004 02:35pm

Call it early
 
Call it early, I agree as long as you call it the same late. I think this has potential for another thread!!

BktBallRef Wed Jan 14, 2004 02:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
Do we use advantage/disadvantage on other violations as well and if not how come?
Yes, I do. Some don't or at least say they don't. I find that hard to believe. I don't think anyone calls everything they see.

But no, I do not call every travel or palming violation I see. I call advantage/disadvantage. I call the obvious.

DJ Wed Jan 14, 2004 03:05pm

Last night
 
In last nights game, I did not call three seconds but my partner had 4 three second calls. I have 27 years of experience he has 1 1/2 years of experience. Everyone in the gym, players, coaches and fans thought they were all good calls. He was consistant in his interpetation of the rule. He also called a nice game and handled himself well in a 1 point game. All this gave credibility to his calls. I'm sure his interpetations on a lot of these issues will mature because I gave him this website to add to his itinerary. One of his comments after the game may hit home for some. He was a coach and a good one for quite a few years and he said now that he is a referee he can't believe how tired he gets after a nights work. We work in an area where we will do both the JV and Varsity game and mostly 2 person. Physical conditioning of officials, aha, another thread! This one may hurt!!

just another ref Wed Jan 14, 2004 03:07pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:


There are coaches who will tell their players to stay in the lane until the officials finally call it the first time.


True,true,true! and who can blame them?

BktBallRef Wed Jan 14, 2004 03:11pm

Re: Call it early
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DJ
Call it early, I agree as long as you call it the same late. I think this has potential for another thread!!
Agreed. Your early calls should set the tone for the game.

just another ref Wed Jan 14, 2004 03:13pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by davidw
Quote:

... most experience officials call most 3 second lane violations only after a good 4 to 5 seconds passes? If that is true, why not increase the limit to 5 seconds?

Because then they wouldn't call it until 7,8,or 9 seconds.
I usually don't count 3 seconds. It's just a matter of
"He's been in there too long." The longer the time, the harder it would be to estimate. 3 seconds is good. It gives us freedom to easily make the call or not, as needed to clean up the game, or let the flow continue.

Dan_ref Wed Jan 14, 2004 03:19pm

Re: Last night
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DJ

...Physical conditioning of officials, aha, another thread! This one may hurt!!

Ya know, there's nothing better than some cheese-fries, a good custard donut and a coupla cans of Bud to wash it down with after a game.

ChuckElias Wed Jan 14, 2004 03:33pm

Re: Re: Last night
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Ya know, there's nothing better than some cheese-fries, a good custard donut and a coupla cans of Bud to wash it down with after a game.
For you health nuts, make it Bud Light! (Blech!)

Andy Wed Jan 14, 2004 03:51pm

Re: Re: Last night
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:


Ya know, there's nothing better than some cheese-fries, a good custard donut and a coupla cans of Bud to wash it down with after a game.
Whaddya mean after the game?

This sounds like a great pre-game snack! :eek:

Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 14, 2004 04:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Ya know, there's nothing better than some cheese-fries, a good custard donut and a coupla cans of Bud to wash it down with after a game.
For you health nuts, make it Bud Light! (Blech!)

Or tofu and a diet coke for the yuppie scum of the world.

DJ Wed Jan 14, 2004 04:38pm

Peer pressure
 
I 'll take a diet coke and don't try any peer pressure on me because I finally can handle that, too! Just one more?

Andy Wed Jan 14, 2004 04:39pm

For me, three seconds was low on the priority list of calls.

When I am officiating off-ball, which in my experience, is where most three second calls come from, I was more concerned with watching for illegal screens and players battling for post position.

My focus is more toward these things than looking for somebody camping in the lane.

BktBallRef Wed Jan 14, 2004 05:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy
For me, three seconds was low on the priority list of calls.

When I am officiating off-ball, which in my experience, is where most three second calls come from, I was more concerned with watching for illegal screens and players battling for post position.

My focus is more toward these things than looking for somebody camping in the lane.

I'm just the opposite.

Most of my 3 second calls are going to come when I'm at lead, a low post player is camped out in the lane, and I nail him when the ball is passed to him.

From C, I have off ball responsibilities mostly. Most players on the weak side are just flashing or cutting through the lane. Rarely do I see 3 seconds from C.

Don't take be offended but I don't have a priority list of calls. If I can't watch a play, discern what rule is being broken, whatever that rule is, I don't have any business being out there.

PublicBJ Wed Jan 14, 2004 05:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
[B}Most of my 3 second calls are going to come when I'm at lead, a low post player is camped out in the lane, and I nail him when the ball is passed to him.
[/B]
Exactly, that was 90% of my 3-second calls. Just be sure to blow that whistle as he's getting it, not after he's caught it and has turned around and is shooting the jump shot.

JRutledge Wed Jan 14, 2004 05:25pm

I think we hear the call for 3 seconds and think this is something we are just ignoring. I do not agree with that. Many times at least the varsity levels and up, the players are not even in the lane for 2 seconds, let alone three. Most of the players I see are moving in and out of the lane constantly. Unless they are trying to get the ball, they are going to move to set a screen or to help get the ball on the perimenter. I think sometimes we get caught up in the fans and the crys for this call. The last 4 games I did there was someone in the stands screaming for "3 seconds" and we had rebound after rebound after rebound. I think we pay more attention to this because of the crys. Not whether this is a legitimate call that needs to be made that often. One of the reasons I have not called one in about 3 years.

Peace

Hawks Coach Wed Jan 14, 2004 07:08pm

I like 3 seconds as 3 seconds. It usually takes a bit more, but I agree with Tony that if you make it 5, the calls will be even fewer and farther between. Like the 10 second FT count - I think that if a player consistently took 20 seconds, you would have a call. 11 seconds, you probably aren't counting that close. with all of the counting except B/c, it seems that the extreme violation gets punished not the strictest interp.

BktBallRef Wed Jan 14, 2004 07:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Like the 10 second FT count - I think that if a player consistently took 20 seconds, you would have a call. 11 seconds, you probably aren't counting that close. with all of the counting except B/c, it seems that the extreme violation gets punished not the strictest interp.
Coach, not sure if you caught the post or not, but I called this last week.

At 12 seconds.

Coach yelled to player, "I told you somebody was going to call it sooner or later." :)

My first ever!! :D

JRutledge Wed Jan 14, 2004 09:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I like 3 seconds as 3 seconds. It usually takes a bit more, but I agree with Tony that if you make it 5, the calls will be even fewer and farther between. Like the 10 second FT count - I think that if a player consistently took 20 seconds, you would have a call. 11 seconds, you probably aren't counting that close. with all of the counting except B/c, it seems that the extreme violation gets punished not the strictest interp.
And that is how it should be. But one of the problems is that people cry for that call, and the player is not even in the lane. I have seen guys touch the line and touch completely out of the lane several times, and a coach is yelling for 3 seconds. From the Lead Position (2 or 3), you can see all of that, but you cannot see that so easily from the stands or at the bench. If a player is trying to get out of the lane, why call that? Let them get out of the lane an avoid that call.

Peace

just another ref Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:33pm

One of the times you see 3 seconds most often is when a player anticipates a teammate taking a shot and it doesn't happen. A1 either makes the pass himself from the post or sees A2 catch the ball in position for a shot. A1 hustles into position and gets a body on B1. Meanwhile something else happened. A2 fumbles the ball. B's defense rotates more quickly than anticipated. A2 has an attack of conscious because of earlier missed shot. (I never actually saw this happen) A1 is still there, working hard, until the whistle. Coach A: "Good job, A1! C'mon, A2, you gotta shoot the ball!"

DJ Thu Jan 15, 2004 09:54am

Good Call
 
Another time when the 3 sec call is appropriate is when a post player has been moving through the lane and then calls for the ball and then after receiving the pass in the lane makes his move to the basket(when 3 sec cannot be called) and then kicks it out instead of taking the shot. This is a very solid application of a play that supports the intent of the rule. This single play constitutes 75% of my three second calls. The defense has collapsed and by them having to cover the lane because that person has been allowed in the lane for the alloted time it frees up the perimeter and creates an obvious advantage situation for the offensive team. would like to clarify the fact that when I refer to him it could be her as a player or official. Sorry if I sound sexist in my posts, I assure you it is unintentional. There are some truly great female referree's and I have had the priviledge of working a state championship game with one of them.

Hawks Coach Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by just another ref
One of the times you see 3 seconds most often is when a player anticipates a teammate taking a shot and it doesn't happen. A1 either makes the pass himself from the post or sees A2 catch the ball in position for a shot. A1 hustles into position and gets a body on B1. Meanwhile something else happened. A2 fumbles the ball. B's defense rotates more quickly than anticipated. A2 has an attack of conscious because of earlier missed shot. (I never actually saw this happen) A1 is still there, working hard, until the whistle. Coach A: "Good job, A1! C'mon, A2, you gotta shoot the ball!"
Never saw it with boys, but you do see it with girls. With boys, I think a missed shot means you have to take more shots to make up for what you missed. With girls, it means that you aren't going to have a good day, you let your teammates down, and now somebody else is going to have to shoot.

just another ref Thu Jan 15, 2004 02:32pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Quote:

Originally posted by just another ref
A2 has an attack of conscious because of earlier missed shot. (I never actually saw this happen) A1 is still there, working hard, until the whistle. Coach A: "Good job, A1! C'mon, A2, you gotta shoot the ball!"

Quote:

Never saw it with boys, but you do see it with girls. With boys, I think a missed shot means you have to take more shots to make up for what you missed. With girls, it means that you aren't going to have a good day, you let your teammates down, and now somebody else is going to have to shoot.
Years ago, playing church league ball, a friend on another team had a horrible night shooting. After the game I told him that I had never seen him miss that many. He said no because usually when he was missing he stopped shooting.
WOW! What a concept!:) I never heard of such a thing. The same guy a few years later had a son playing in the youth league, age 10-12 or so. He said that he had advised his son, "When you see that you're not hitting, stop shooting and get the ball to somebody else." After the game one night the son said, "Dad, by the time I realized I wasn't hitting, the game was over.":D

BktBallRef Thu Jan 15, 2004 02:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Never saw it with boys...
Surely you jest! :)

You've NEVER seen a male player get postion in the lane because he thought a teammate was about to shoot, and then, the shot didn't go up?

Hawks Coach Thu Jan 15, 2004 04:35pm

Surely I exagerate!
 
It was obviously an overstatement, but in my years coaching boys, I had more players who never saw a shot they couldn't make. With girls, my best shooters will at times stop shooting no matter how open they are if they miss a couple early.


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