OK...now that this thing has been in place for a season and a half, how many have you had? Is it effective (does it work better than the T)?

I had none last year, and I've had 2 this year. Once the coach said nothing, but yesterday's JV coach *****ed about it for a whole quarter...even came out to "help" me dab up a wet spot and tried to convince me that I missed it!!! It was at that point I told him that "WE" were finished discussing that call!!!

I've had about two over the last few years.

I think it's the greatest thing since AP - and has probably prevented a lot of nastiness since its inception.

One, last year.

Not yet.
 

Never have called one or seen it called in a regular game. I called it once in a "off-season" tournament right before the season started. And that was the same year they put the rule in.

Peace

A Veteran once told me:

Dude...you don't have to get angry at a Coach when he is questioning your call...just suggest to him that it was in your judgement that the player did so and so. If you think you might have "kicked" the call...tell the Coach and move on. Of course you don't want to be telling the Coach you kicked a call every couple minutes. Maybe once a game.

In this case it was your judgment that the player excessively swung his arms. Rule 9-13-1

Tell him so and move on. Don't take the B****ing for a whole quarter though! Sheesh.

RD

I have called maybe 4 or 5 elbow violations in the past two years.... Very helpful option to intervene earlier.

As for the coach's B****ing, explain what you saw and then move on. Additional gripes would get the universal stop sign; and further redirectives, if necessary.

I have a situation related to this that I would like some input on: If player A1 gets a rebound and elbows A2, a: in the shoulder, b: in the face and A2 is laying in a pool of blood with a broken nose.
Is there a call? Other than blowing the whistle for an injured player?

Depends.

O.K. lets say that A1 rebounds the ball and gets the elbows up which most coaches teach from day 1. In my mind the rebounder is responsible for contact when the elbows are extended away from the body!!! But for the sake of discussion let's say that he is trying to clear himself with the elbows extended parallel to the floor. I really would like to hear other officials views on this subject.

If the contact is initiated by B then I certainly wouldn't call the foul on A simply because he had his elbows extended.

If A swings the elbows it is a violation on A. If there is contact intiated by A as they turn with the elbows extended as you describe then I would go with PC.

Mike,

Did you notice that I said that the player hit his own player with the elbow? That is what I am wondering about. Do we call anything in that situation? Maybe as a preventative?

Doh! I didn't notice that. That'll teach me to read the posts carefully.
I've got nothing, unless A1 is swinging the elbows. If he just has them parallel and isn't actually turning them, and A2 smackes into A1's elbows, nothing. If he swings them, I might call a violation. OTOH, I might just consider the injury to A2 to be punishment enough. It's hard to say without seeing the play.
aw

I had this situation in a boys varsity game friday night. The player was clearing himself with the elbows out after a rebound. He hit his own player in the back of the head. He didn't get hurt or anything, but it got me thinking on the way home. What do we consider swinging of the elbows? Is clearing themselves with the elbows parallel to the floor swinging the elbows? The elbows go back and forth but aren't necessarily swinging. I still think that the rebounder is responsible for contact with outstretched elbows. The defender has a right to the spot even if it is right adjacent to the rebounder.

To me, if the elbows are moving laterally, rather than straight up and down, in a motion that could cause contact, it's a violation. If he just comes up, reflexively, with his elbows and smacks his teammate in the chin (up and down elbow movement), I've probably got nothing. If he hits an opponent, I've probably got a PC either way (depending on severity of contact).

To me, "clearing" is just what the rule is designed to prevent. If a coach is teaching that, he's at fault when I call it. If a player extends the elbows to protect the ball, fine. But if he swings them (any discernable lateral movement other than a full-body pivot). I suppose I'm looking to see if he is swiveling his hips rather than pivoting on his pivot foot axis. Or, if the arms move and the rest of the body does not. If he pivots, and the elbows move with the rest of his body, no violation.
I'm still debating on the hip swivel, however.

Thanks for the reply. I think we are on the same page. We, as officials, have to protect the rebounder from getting mauled once they secure the ball so they won't feel like they have to keep the defenders at bay with elbows.

Mine yesterday was EASY!!! Kid gets the ball just over the division line, gets trapped with the ball and pivots three times with the elbows out at nose level of the defenders. The first pivot, I stepped toward the play, the second pivot, my red flag went up, and the third one that almost connected with a nose got the whistle. The coach and I have a pretty good relationship, he wasn't being a jerk about it, and I didn't want to create an adversarial situation since I have to come back for a varsity assignment in a couple of weeks. I was very confident in my assessment of the situation. I'm sure that he just hadn't seen the call made much and was somewhat surprised with the whole issue. That got me to thinking...how many times has this coach seen this call made? I seriously doubt that it wasn't much...and based on you guys' responses, I'm right.

Hip swivel or shoulder swivel deserves the violation, this is the epitome of throwing an elbow and if contact is made with a defender, call a foul commensurate with the contact.

What do you have in the case of a full body pivot with contact resulting on an opponent and how would you square your decision with ...
Rules Chapter 9 SECTION 13 EXCESSIVE SWINGING OF ARM(S)/ELBOW(S)???

ART. 1 . . . A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent.
ART. 2 . . . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.
ART. 3 . . . Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.
We see this call quite frequently as we actively coach our players to pivot in accordance with the rule cited above especially Art 3 It seems many officials are inclined to call violation, or even a COMMON FOUL, when they see any elbow movement. As you will recall, PC is acceptable as is Flagrant or even a T, but it can never be a common foul based on my reading. With the POE as of last year they reflexively feel they must call something even in cases where the ballhandler is exerting total body movement.

NB COACH TALKING!!!!

Thanks for your insights


[Edited by justacoach on Jan 11th, 2004 at 07:09 PM]

I completely agree with this statement.

Sorry, I missunderstood your origional question. I would have to agree with Snag that when it comes to contact between teammates I got nothin'.

I've called it once, earlier this season.

So I kicked it???


Geeze Louise!!! Now I'll never call it again!:D

Not necessarily. I'd say you could even call a full body pivot, if you felt he was using it to "clear" out space. I'd have to see that one, though.

I was given the interpretation that it had to be a swing in one direction and a return. Elbows must be turning faster than the torso for this to be a violation. That's how I've called it and I have called 1 in two years.

Mregor

I was given the interpretation that it had to be a swing in one direction and a return. Elbows must be turning faster than the torso for this to be a violation. That's how I've called it and I have called 1 in two years.

[/B][/QUOTE]Why does the swing have to include a return? :confused:

You'd have to ask the state rep who conducted the rules meeting. I only call them how they want it called.

Mregor

If your state rep sez so, then that's what you gotta call. I don't agree with him, though. If a player shoots an elbow(faster than he's pivoting),stops it just short of hitting someone but doesn't return the elbow, that certainly meets the spirit and intent of the rule,imo.