Last night I had to T up two Asst Coaches trying to be Bobby Knight. In both instances the coaches jumped off the bench and yelled at the top of their lungs at my partner.

Well, when I got home I was telling my 17 year old son (who plays HS B-Ball) what happened and he said "Dad I know they didn't yell at you". I replied no, but why do you say that and he asks "were they White Coaches", I said yes, "with White players" I say yes "and was your partner White" I say yes, my son ended, "they are not going to yell and scream at a Black Referee because they are afraid of how you might react". It made me think for a minute and you know, noone has yelled or screamed in my face, YET!

Since I'm new to officiating is this somewhat true?

I think....
 

the fact that you have't been screamed at yet by a coach is more the result of you're being a relatively new official, than it is the fact that you're black. Do this long enough; it will happen to you, too. UNLESS, you're a 6'-6" 280# black man. Then, you may never have a coach scream at you. And if that's the case, I'll take you as a partner anytime!!

"Familiarity breeds contempt." - Publius Syrus. (42 B.C.)

Woodee,
Dunno, ignorant people do strange things.

Like your son implied, wait 'til they get to know you better, ... or maybe you are simply just that good!

I always thought *white hair* had some advantages.

mick

Could be lots of things
 

Could be a bias, could be rookie syndrome, could be they thought the other ref was more "workable." You can never know.
I have seen rookies handled in two ways. One is to ride only the rookie hoping he'll crack and give you some calls. The other is to ride his partner hoping he'll take pity on you for the "mistakes" his inexperienced partner is making and give you some calls. I am not sure that these techniques actually work, but coaches are coaches.

That said, I see bias all the time and it is naive not to suggest that it exists. I work with a man who won't sit down at lunch with our coworkers when it is just the females, will readily sit down if another male is already present. I have worked with another man who would direct questions of a technical nature only to males, never to the females, even when the females were the technical experts in the area that he need info (and the women knew it!). I have seen similar dynamics between blacks and whites, and both directions. The bias may be a conscious prejudice or an unconscious bias that the person is not even aware exists. But if biases are evident in the workplace, they exist everywhere and will be there on the court.

I also see plenty of people who demonstrate no bias in this regard. I would like to include myself in this category, but I am not naive enough to think I am qualified to judge myself. We all have preconceptions we carry around with us and they come into play in the most subtle ways at times.

Had sort of the reverse in a game on Tuesday. 3-person crew -- white male (me), white female, black male (the R). Coach was black and was all over the black official (20+ year veteran and good official) and would basically only talk to the female. Don't think he ever spoke to me. The R finally gave him the "stop sign". I thought he should have T'd him earlier. This coach has a reputation of "working black officals", for whatever reason. Have seen him do this on more than one occassions and he does it to some of the most laid-back black officials you could ever work with. Coach has a definite problem, but I can't imagine why he does this.

One of my high school partners (white) told me this story:

He was working rec ball and showed up for a game with one team consisting solely of black players. After he called a foul on one of the players, the player turned and called him a "cracker."

My partner ejected the player and the player got a very short suspension (1-2 games). My partner feels that had the races been reversed and a slur used the penalty would've been more sever. I'm not sure about that.

Truth is, the only colors I see when I'm working are the colors of the uniforms. I'm not smart enough to favor one team over another for any reason.

Woodee,

There are several counties in my state that have zero black population. It is not rare for everyone in the gym to be white but an official. These people are redneck as steretyped on TV but they are polite to a black official. There will be a collective groan when a call goes against their team but you don't see the personal insults like they aim at me. Go figure.

Mulk

RE:
 

I'm a Black Official and in my 3rd season. I have never had a coach scream at me but I had a few who were upset at some of my calls. When that happens and they go overboard T them up

Hawks Coach,

Excellent synopsis. One of the best, most concise ones I have read or heard. I appreciate your well thought and expressed observations.

I read this and said no way at first. Then I thought about my experiences with coaches over the years. It does have some merit. I also think over time your personality will be the deciding factor with your treatment. Most coaches want to know what they are getting in an official. If you are black and you are fair then they will eventually accpept what you are doing. Now, they will not like it all of the time but they will accept it for the most part. There are coaches that will never learn how to conduct themselves on the sideline but they want consistent calls. So, sure they might have treated you that way because you are black or it could be that you're a rookie. Stay at it and it will all even out.

Not much has changed.
 

Woodee,

I think you have to understand that coaches bring their biases on the court. No matter what color they are. So if you are dealing with white coaches that have very little interaction with officials like us, then that can be problematic if that coach has feelings about authoritiy figures that are African-American. It is the nature of the beast. And in my circles often talked about. I happen to have started my career in mostly rurual communities, where in many cases I was the only African-American in the gym. So I had to deal with some things that not many had to. I even had an incident where a Principal was trying to get me off a game because he did not like the game I called a week before. And he only signaled me out, and left my white partner out of it. Considering the community he came from and the school involved, that was not a shock what the motivation was. But having said all that, just because we have come are separated from Jim Crow laws or the 60s, does not mean all is well in this country when it comes to race. The only thing has chanced is that it is not PC to openly express certain points of view, but the way people are treated are not that different. And yes it affects Black officials when we try to officiate games with coaches that are not of color. At least it does with the guys I officiate with.

Peace

Re: Not much has changed.
 

How do you KNOW what his motiviation was?

I ask because I have a similiar situation.

Two years ago, a AD who is black and works at a pre-dominantly black school, marked me off. He did not mark off either of my two partners. Should I suspect that the markoff is racially motivated? More importantly, how can I KNOW that's why he marked me off?

You KNOW better than I would.
 

Just like when I get stopped by the Police in a high priced car and I am not ticketed, but asked more about the car and what I do for a living, you tend to cross off possible reasoning. It does not help that the community this principal came from has had race problems in the past. It was and is a very recognized place for African-Americans in all walks of life to not be caught in that community. Because as an official of my racial makeup, if I want to work games (at that time) I have to work in many communities like this. As a matter of fact, I had no choices to work in communities where the entire school was all-Black. I would also like to say, that the individuals that were around and were all not people of color, thought the very same thing. The assignor, the official I worked with that night, a few mentors of mine, all thought the same thing. Maybe it was not, but he did all the things that pointed in that direction.

I will bet that even if he marked you off, if you wanted to, your probably would never have to go back to the predominantly African-American school again and function. So if you want to think it was racially motivated, that is up to you. You know the history of the school and the circumstances of that school and other white officials in that area. You were there, it is up to you to come to the conclusion as to why you were marked off. Do not try to act like what people do in our daily lives, we cannot be precepetive enough to "see the writing on the wall." Many African-Americans are very aware when they are being treated differently and can see that without anyone saying anything to confirm it. Give us some credit. ;)

Peace

Re: You KNOW better than I would.
 

And I don't doubt that's true. I've never been in a black man's shoes but I have been treated unfairly because I was white.

I've also seen situations where people attempted to play the race card when it wasn't happening. And you've seen it, too. We've all seen it. And that hurts those who really are being discriminated against. It can be like the boy who cried wolf.

In the end, whether it's you or me, unless a man tells us that he didn't want us there because we're black or white, it's simply speculation and perception as to why we're not wanted back. Unless we're told, I have no way of KNOWING and you have no way of KNOWING.

Just wanted to make that point. I'm done.

Incidentally, I still work football games at that same school.

Re: Re: You KNOW better than I would.
 

Well at least you are surrounded by folks that make decisions that look like you. If you have been treated differently, instead of having to constantly overcome sterotypes and wrong preceptions and those are by the folks that have decision making power.

I am so sick and tired of people trying saying, "playing the race card." I really am. Because no one plays any card. Discrimination is not a card. Discrimination is a real and living thing. Most African-Americans that I know do not have a distrust for the systems they are under because there is a card, they feel that way based on very specific situations they have experienced. From an officiating standpoint, there are Black officials that have achieved everything or on the same plane as their non-Black counterparts, and they are on the outside looking in. I know more white officials that extensively in the Chicago Public League (which in many situations is all-Black players and coaches) compared to the mostly white suburban areas and the number of non-white officials ever have gotten in those circles. I work in some conferences were all I see are the "mostly-Black" teams. You tell me that there are 12 or more teams in this conference and I see 1 school every year not matter what? Why are we working only one team in a conference with 12 or more teams, every year? Now that can be a card to you, but to many there is a solid reason for that fact. It is not because they love me so much at those particular schools.

Well that sounds wonderful. But if you need to be told everything than I really do not see how anyone would function. We talk all the time about things that are "unsaid" but expected. And when folks change what they have done in the past, they move on or up. Ask Rick Berry and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar about why they cannot get a NBA job? They have not been told anything, but they are still trying to fight preconceived notions about their personalities.

Maybe they do not care as much about football? :D

Peace

Good Discussions!
 

I think my son's view is that these Coaches are not use to being around Blacks (especially yelling at an adult Black), therefore they don't know what to expect other than what they see, hear or read about Blacks, which is sometimes negative.

I asked two of my mentors both Blacks with 20 + yrs experience and one said "he never thought about it before, but quickly trying to remember he said "NOONE has ever pulled a Bobby Knight on him". The other person said "it was because I did a good job and thats why they didn't yell at me". He also mentioned that when I do this longer I will eventually get it.


The purpose for this thread was to make us think about it.


Personally if a Coach is afraid of me because of my race, well SHAME on him or her.


Please keep in mind I don't want any Coach yelling at me. I carry a 9 millimeter!

Good discussions!

Another satisfied CMG user!!!

Uh, mick, we could use a moderator...ahem...a referee right about now!!!

I realize that I am not the smartest person and I do get easily confused but was it not you that responded to basketball ref by pointing out that "we" don't get but 1 school out of 12 implying that it is because "we" are black. I have no problem with you saying that or believing that. But, I do have a problem when you bragging over and over about your schedule. I guess you mean that it would be even better if you were white?

Either the games are based on ability (which you point out over and over) or they are based on some something else. Which is it?

Re: Good Discussions!
 

Wow.

That's all I got to say on that one.

OK Mulky.
 

I am not going to play your little pity game. But if you were not so eager to try to put someone down that does not agree with you, you might not have been offended. I understand what works for me, works for me. I do not try to do what folks in Atlanta do, because you say so. Sorry, that did not get me where I am now or is not going to get me where I want to be.


Maybe you need a life lesson. Achievement is based on talent, color, who you know, who you do not know, who you associate yourself with, what you do, what you wear, who you have talked to, what your experience is, what you say, what you do not say, who you say what to and do you stay out of trouble. And that is just half the story. Some have more weight than others. Some might make or break you. But all factor in. ;)

Happy hunting. :rolleyes:

Peace

There's no way it's that simple, Ron. Where Jeff works, each AD at each school hires his or her own refs for home games. They don't have one assignor who dishes out the games how he sees fit. So some of Jeff's games are worked on the basis of ability (probably many, since I suspect he's a very good ref), and others are not given based on race -- it will depend on the school, the background and current emotional state of each AD, and the general tenor of the population at each individual game site. Furthermore, even people who really like Jeff's work may be under pressure from others to either hire more or less people of color, depending on THAT person's background, etc. The whole racial discrimination issue is so enormously complicated that it really isn't very fair to limit Jeff to only two possibilities -- either this or that.

YU.P.

The problem is in the assigning method, as far as I'm concerned.

Everywhere else I've lived the officials association acts as a buffer, gets the game contracts, and assigns officials. In the best run places, coaches didn't even have redlining or scratching capabilities. The games were evenly distributed amongst the varsity-quality officials and officials NEVER had to call schools and ask them if they can get scheduled.

Why someone gets or doesn't get assigned certain games is a complicated matter. When I lived in a big city with a large African-American population, I had a hard time getting assigned to the best basketball schools, which were highly African-American. Is this any better or any different than Jeff not getting assignments at certain schools? I don't know. I know that I was just as good on the floor as those officials and occasionally did get to prove it. But it wasn't a coincidence that all-White crews were sent to mostly White schools and vice-versa.

Right now I'm having mixed success where I live, where the assignments are handled in the same fashion as in Illinois -- I am able to get a lot of assignments in some conferences and can't even get the courtesy of a reply from the commissioner of other conferences -- conferences where I've watched officials work who I felt were of lesser quality than myself and my regualr partner. What's our problem? We're TRANSFER officials, only 2 years in the area.

But there's a bright side to all this -- I may have to drive farther to my games (90 miles one way tomorrow night -- don't gasp, we get paid for mileage) but I do control my own schedule. And because of that, I am able to go to places where I know we're appreciated because in very rural areas there aren't many or any good officials. And when I get tired of driving that far, I'll have to decide whether to continue doing this or hope I'm able to break into some of the closer conferences.

Factually speaking (I am not going to play Ron's game).
 

I work for about 9 give or take different assignors. I used to live in an area where you get games only by the AD. I still do a few games a year at some of those schools. But now I live in an area that most, if not all the conferences assign the games thru and assignor. The best way I can explain it is like the NCAA Conferences. Each conference has their own assignment chairperson and has its own concerns. The best way to get assigned in each conference is to be seen by the assignement person or to have the right person recommend you. One of them assigns crews for his games. So I can bring who I want to when he assigns me for the most part. Rich happens to work for one of them as well.

Two of the assignment people that I work for made a point to me to hire more African-American officials for their conferences. Mainly because their suburban schools had some mostly Black schools and the coaches wanted to see more Black official in those conferences.

But everything that Juulie said and Rich said was right on. I just wanted to clarify that I am not doing games that are assigned by only schools and AD. But I have and that does bring a different level of challenges. And that story that I was referencing, happen to be a school that normally assigned their own officials. But the game this Pricipal was trying to scratch me from was assigned by another school for a conference tournament. It just happen to be hosted by the school of this Principal.

Peace

All of our conferences assign by crews where I live. In WI we work 2-official crews and I could literally choose to work every game with the same official all season long. But we all have some personal conflicts throughout the year and openings come up, so in the end I'll probably work with 5 or 6 people before the season is over.

I do work boys varsity games in Illinois for 2 conferences and those games are assigned to crews. One of the crews that I work on for one of those conferences consists of 3 officials that drive down from WI to work. So I have a shirt with a patch for those games and we drive down in one car -- sometimes quite a shorter distance than we drive for games in our "own" state. But I love the different style of basketball and I love working 3-official mechanics.

-------------

Frankly, the coaches and the ADs wield a lot of power where I am. That works to my advantage most of the time as I've received more positive feedback from coaches and ADs than anything else. But it has also caused some interesting things to happen.

Last season I was working a varsity boys game WAY out in the sticks. At least 90-100 miles from home. Visiting assistant coach comes out on the floor to complain about a non-call during a live ball and my partner (rightly) whacks him.

As I'm calmly and professionally seating the head coach he makes a comment about how we just lost a school. I was stunned at the blatant nature of the comment, so much so that I neglected to call the flagrant technical he deserved for it.

Some coaches aren't very smart in some regards, though. He may control HIS home schedule, but most teams do play road games and I notice he's on my schedule twice in February. It won't affect anything, but my smile will be a bit bigger than usual when we greet him before the game.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Jan 8th, 2004 at 11:51 PM]

Just like a lot of people play the "race card," a lot of coaches play the "you'll never work here again card." :)

"Hey, 100 miles away in the dead of winter! Please, please coach, mark me off! But before I go, take this with you! WHACK!!" :D

Oh dear, I bet that gets BBallCoach going again! :(

Unfortunately, he will start a new thread in the process.

To be honest, we had a good laugh on the way home using just about the same words you did. I just mapped it, BTW -- it is 115 miles one way to his school. We weren't actually at his school and haven't ever been -- they were the visiting team and we were probably about 40 miles closer at the time. My personal limit for a regular season game is about 90 miles, BTW. Unless I'm not the one driving :)

Re: Re: Good Discussions!
 

This might sound bad, but it isn't meant to be, its reality.

My son has been raised in an enviroment just as he described so he knows. He is a military brat and all of his friends are White, so he has heard somethings.


He is a good kid!


BTW,

The Coaches were very, very apologetic after the T's.

Great Post
 

Rainmaker,

Great post. Very articulate. I am just so tired of hearing about Rut's schedule that I cannot be objective anymore when it comes to games he gets or does not get. It's like it don't matter what is in the rulebook or it doesn't matter what others' opinion are on a topic, ACA is all that matters. When he is on TV and doing D1 ballplayers out the ying yang, it is because of how good he is. When the system lets him down, it is because he is black.

But, sure can't say anything negative about your post. Could you send it to my email address so that I can save it.

Mulk

Re: Great Post
 

Ron, you can use your browser's edit function to copy and paste anything off this board into a word process-able document.

I understand your annoyance with Jeff. He views this board as a group of friends swapping yarns, and not so much of a public arena. So to someone who feels more like a spectator, he might look a little vain, I suppose. If you can look past some of his gruff exterior you will find a wealth of reffing wisdom which can be applied to many different situations, along with a little of the crotchety arrogance that we all need at times in order to do a good job on the floor. Occasionally, he loses his temper about race issues, but then we all have our buttons, don't we? It's just a shame when we lose it with each other instead of saving the righteous indignation for those that really deserve it, namely anyone besides the refs!

Re: Great Post
 

Do not try to take a discussion from another board and try to involve everyone else in it without telling all the facts.

Again, if you want to have a discussion about what we talked about on the other board, do that. But do not try to come here and pick and choose what part of the discussion and try to pass it off as the "whole" story. Because when we were having that discussion, I mentioned what was an acceptable call and what was not an acceptable call. And did so about what was acceptable in my area. You then try to show a rule that suggested the play was an "intentional foul" and no one suggested that but you. You could not find one play that backed your contention of what was proper. And the original poster asked for opinions, not rule references.

Name <b>one</b> sitauation where I said I failed because I was Black? Name one situation. Do not take part of the argument and use it, give the entire story. I will be waiting for you to do that, because you will not be able to.

But then again, you live in Atlanta. You probably think YOU know. BTW, I have family that lives in Atlanta. Wonderful city and surrounding area. But you probably have never looked around and talked to anyone there. ;)

Peace

Race Card
 

Rut,

Somebody else brought up the racecard because you got knocked out of an assignment by some principal because he was white and from a white neighborhood. All your friends, assignors, etc. felt the same way. (if I knew how, I would paste your words here, not mine). The poster pointed out that you could not KNOW unless that is what you were told. Is any of this ringing a bell?

Anyway, in the last 12 hours:

You have told me to shut up
You have called me stupid
Now, you are telling me what I can say on this board or that board.

And, you are wanting to give me life lessons?

Ronny, Rut,
C'mon fellas.
Yer both good refs and good people.
http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/deadhorse.gif
mick

neither
 

i am not a good person or a good ref but i would like to be. everytime i get close, i keep getting put down by the black man. you know, calling me stupid, telling me to shutup, making fun of where i live, telling me what i can't do or can do.

I just can't take it anymore. Help me, Mick.

I like the animation.

I think Mulk has some personal issues to deal with. Especially when someone is so wrapped up in what I say about anything.

I can only speak about personal experience. I can only talk about what works for me. The reason I always talk about my area (which everyone and their Grandmother does). I can only talk about the level I do. Sorry if that is 4 and 5 JV games during the week, when I do not do them. I have one tommorrow morning BTW. And if you notice, I do not come here asking anyone any questions about what to do in my games. For one, if I have any real issues with a situation, that is what the rulebook, casebook is for. And I have extensive access to phone numbers of officials that I trust their opinion to ask. Then if the situation is unclear to me, I might come here and ask for opinions after I have consulted with many officials I know personally, but with the complete understanding that it might not apply to where I live. I think Mulk does not understand the underlining issues that affect everyone's officiating life. It does not revolve around our individual feelings.

Peace

You cannot handle the truth.
 

Cannot speak on that one. That is something you family and your friends will have to decide.

This is why you need counseling. Because I have not kept you from doing anything. Maybe there is a Black man that is doing it, but it ain't me. If you are worried about some guy that lives in a "dry" suburb about 15 miles outside of Chicago city limits and you live in Atlanta or Hotlanta, which many call it, you are never going to get anywhere in officiating. I have family that live there, they are not running their lives based on what I say to them. They are grown. They have families and other concerns in life. Why does that not apply to you? You can call that an insult, you can call it a lie. But I do not even know anything about you and really do not care. Other than this post and the things you decided to disclose, I did not even know you exsisted. Sorry that my world does not revolve over ronny mulkey. And I really could give a damn.

I'm out!!

Peace

ACA rulebook
 

Is that the rulebook or casebook that is issued to those Chicago area refs trying to advance?

Yo Mick, that thing your smiley's are trying to eat looks like my dog at around 10 PM. ???

Nah, Woody's bigger than a horse now, isn't he?

Got a saddle for him,yet?

"Aaargh. Needs salt."

Sarcastic but serious questions.
 

Let me ask you this Mulk.

You call everything to the letter of the rulebook and casebook? You never call anything based on a philosophy or what people call the "spirit of the rules?"

So you call 3 seconds no matter what the player is doing?

You call all uniform and administrative rules to the letter (Shadow lines, size of the numbers, length of the net).

You T every coach that has a foot outside of the coaching box?

Have you ever attended a camp of any kind?

Have you ever spoken to an official at a level above yourself?

How many officials do you know that want to work 7th and 8th grade games all season long? I am not talking about the 30 year veterans that had their college schedules and State Final credentials that now their knees cannot take the punishment of kids more than 2 times their age. I am talking about the new officials that has just started or been around for a few years.

Because if all these answers are what I think they are, then I really do not see how you can even play a game, let alone not start every game with a T. But that is what the rules say.

Better yet, read the "3 second" post that has started sometime today and tell all those officials what rulebook are they reading. Why don't you tell them how wrong they are and to look up the rules in the rulebook and casebook. See how far that gets you. ;)

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Jan 9th, 2004 at 03:59 PM]

Re: Re: Great Post
 

I'm sooooo hurt.

On topic, however, I can see how some whites who have not been around people of color, might become a little paranoid about how they speak out of fear of being accused of being racist. I don't think that fear is necessarily racism, I think it may well be ignorance. Particularly in the cited case, those assistants displayed a whole bunch of ignorance thinking they could ride an official without getting T'd up.

And a final aside, I don't think I've ever seen a T given that wasn't well deserved, or at least required by the rules. I don't know how you officials put up with half the stuff I have heard/seen. If I ever make the leap to the side of the force (away from the dark side of coaching), that may be my biggest challenge.

Re: Re: Re: Great Post
 

I LOVE it! :D

Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Post
 

Ray --

I agree!!

Butch -- We have an unwritten rule around here, which I suppose should be stated more often. Any coach who:

1)continues to post here, and
2)takes the attitude that the refs are often correct, and even when they're not, they deserve to be treated as adults, and
3)never blames the losses on the refs

isn't included in the general, blanket criticisms. This means you, CYO Butch -- you are the exception to the rule, and nothing we say negative about coaches applies to you. Unless you want it to.

Ronny Mulkey -- It's okay to be annoyed with Jeff. You won't be the only one. But it doesn't have to have a lot to do with race. Jeff is a little abrasive at times just like a lot of Caucasian, Latino, Asian, and any other race guys. Just because race is the subject that you disagree about, doesn't mean that all blacks are like this or all whites are like that. Ya gotta shrug it off the way you would with Jurassic, or that obnoxious coach that keeps starting new threads about Dan. Or Dan, for that matter. I know you know that, but I just want you not to leave the board because of an irritation with one person.

PS. The only way to pull this off is to let him have the last word. No one will think less of you.

A small horse.



Only after a bath. Prior to that he smells like low tide.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Post
 

Say what now?...hey Chuck, you're the the bright kid in the class...is this good or bad??

Quote:

PS. The only way to pull this off is to let him have the last word. No one will think less of you.

Common wisdom is it's damn near impossible. :D

Just because race is the subject that you disagree about, doesn't mean that all blacks are like this or all whites are like that. Ya gotta shrug it off the way you would with Jurassic, or that obnoxious coach that keeps starting new threads about Dan.
[/B][/QUOTE]Pardon?

Exactly wherethell did I post about race- either in this thread or any other thread?

I don't appreciate being brought into this argument.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Post
 

I have been studiously and quite intentionally avoiding this entire discussion.

Wisely too, Chuck.

Re: neither
 

That is sad but at least you say it out loud. Attitudes like this exist all over but the difference between now and 60 years ago is that it isn't voiced now. Sad but true.

I don't know, maybe you are joking. I've heard this statement used jokingly before. If you are then use a smiley face or something.

Rainmaker and Mulkey, I'm curious now to know the whole story with Rut and this schedule thing. Do you guys really have a problem with him or is this just some ribbing?

History
 

Rainmaker,

Two or three years ago, Rut lampooned a mechanics issue regarding the non-calling official informing the coach. That was fine but what he did to personalize it was to question people's (mine especially) manhood. i.e. "if you are scared of the coach, you can't ACA. I'm a man and I am not scared to go over there and stand by my call. You must not be a man. You must be stupid". It went on and on. Of course, the Fed finally changed that mechanic to reflect what had already become a good game management technique practiced in a lot of areas (outside of Chicago). Then, he question's your schedule or your ability. Eventually, you do lose sight of the intent of the original post. My part in this thread is not about race. It is about Rut's great schedule that we all have to hear about all the time. Rut played the race card.

Race relations have come a long way down here. To illustrate I'll tell you this story:

3 guys are in the maternity ward awaiting the first child of each. One is white and from rural Georgia, one is a black man from Atlanta and one is white from Chicago. The doctor comes out and tells them we have 3 healthy baby boys in there but we have misidentified them. Let's all go in and see if we can straighten this out. The good old rural boy runs in there and claims the black kid. The black guy looks at him and the good old boy exclaims "there is no way in hell I am going to even take a chance that my kid is from Chicago"

Ronny, a very wise man I know is noted for saying "Get in, get done, get out".

Good advice for this thread.

Juraissic,

Probably good advice. But, do you mind telling me why? You can email me offline.

Mulk

Pardon?

Exactly wherethell did I post about race- either in this thread or any other thread?

I don't appreciate being brought into this argument. [/B][/QUOTE]

Woody --

Sorry to bring you in to it. and sorry to be so clumsy about it. I was just referring to your crotchety nature and not to anything you've ever said about race. I was trying to say that Ronny should use the same patience with Jeff that some might need to deal with the "old coots" on the board. I hereby let you OUT of this thread officially and completely.

Ronny, I think he's referring to what I did in this thread. Get in, make your point, get out. Don't get bogged down in it. It's not going anywhere.

Amen!

Woody --

Sorry to bring you in to it. and sorry to be so clumsy about it. I was just referring to your crotchety nature and not to anything you've ever said about race. I was trying to say that Ronny should use the same patience with Jeff that some might need to deal with the "old coots" on the board. I hereby let you OUT of this thread officially and completely. [/B][/QUOTE]"Crotchety" I can live with, Juulie.

http://www.gifs.net/animate/history.gif

I just wanted to make sure that "crotchety" doesn't include never listening to someone else's viewpoint and then admitting it if I was wrong. As in the BBallCoach mentioned in the same sentence as me. When you get into these racially-themed posts, you are never gonna change another poster's mind- no matter how compelling your argument(or logic) might be. The arguments are usually more emotional than logical, and that's why I keep away from them.

Re: History
 

If you are going to tell the story, tell the entire story. That is a flat out lie. What I said then and I continue to say, if you call a foul, you called it, it is not going to hurt anyone to go tell the coach yourself. And I used a very common phrase with officials in and out of the Chicago area, before the NF made the change this year. There are other parts of the State of Illinois other than what goes on is Chicago. And this philosophy was taught to me by officials outside of Chicago.

And how long ago was that. Get over it already. A <b>real man</b> would have been moved on from that. Now you sound like a girl I once dated that brought up something that I did when we first met. There is a reason I do not date her anymore. That was about 2 or 3 years ago.

Good Lord!!! :rolleyes:

Peace

Rut, man it isn't worth the argument. Even though you know some things, they are better left unsaid.