Elementary game last night I was the umpire. Not long after the start of the 4th quarter I realize that team A is playing a 3-3 defense. I quickly count team players and sure is six of them on the floor. Whistle and team T. This is a case where we never should have put the ball into play and I feel a mistake by us officials for allowing it to happen. By the rule book the call was right but at that level what would you have done?

Yes give a T. Everyone in the gym would know why. I'm surprised you didn't have parents yelling "there's 6 on the floor!" or something like that.

Learn 'em while they're young.

But to prevent this, always count the players yourself, even if your partner(s) count for you. This is also something that can/should be discussed in pregame.

For me it depends on how far we got into the game before I would call the "T". From your post I would have call the "T", but if we just in bounded and no real play has started I'll stop the play get the extra off and start from there.

No.....I have no rule or case reference for this...I'm not going to penalize the kids because I can't or didn't count.

But you're going to penalize the other team.

They have a coach. The coach is just as responsibile, if not moreso, than you are to make sure there are only 5 on the floor.

If the ball is inbounded and there are 6 on the floor, there's no choice.

It's NOT our fault
 

I'm surprised at the number of times I've heard officials talk about it being their fault if there are six or more players on the floor. Yes, we should be practicing preventive officiating and yes we should catch this. However, if we don't the responsibility still lies squarely on the coach for allowing more of his/her players on the floor than is legal.

In my pregame we discuss for all subs, time outs, etc. the non administering offical counts players before telling or communicationg that they are ready for the throw in. Helps a lot, particulary with new officials.

Had same situation. At the beginning, I caught it about 5 seconds in, stopped it, took the one off and re-inbounded the ball. I forgot to count and since it was elementary kids we didn't T.

I would always issue a T for 6 players. It has happened to me 2 times that I can remember. I do feel partially responsible when it does happen; however, I also feel that ultimately it is the coaches responsibility to make sure they have the correct number of players on the floor. On one of the occasions it happened to me, we had counted the players correctly and right after the ball was inbounded, a player came running onto the floor from the bench to make six, not much we could do to prevent that. I know that if I were the coach of the non offending team, I would be pretty upset if the T were not issued.

Mike,
I would just add one caveat, and I mention it only because of the original situation in this thread. At the elementary level, I might be more inclined to take care of the problem without a T if I caught it right after the throw in. However, if a player comes running onto the court after the ball has been inbounded? I'll have a T at any level above 2nd grade (note, this is an arbitrary cutoff point).

It's not our fault, but I still count players after substitutions are made and prior to the ball becoming live again. I haven't called a foul for 6 players in more than 20 years.

In an elementary game, I wouldn't call a T if it was right after the throw in. Give em a break.

In a game yesterday, B came out to start the quarter with SEVEN players. I was faithfully counting, but that many players is pretty easy to spot :)

Re: It's NOT our fault
 

In the time that I've become "a decent ref," I have no memory of ever having to call a T for this.

I count how many players go off and how many go on the court. Then, I re-count, many times twice, to make sure there are 5 for each team on the court. However, I also officiate football and I count (twice) to 12 every play, so for me counting is no big deal.

Sure, it's a T. However, in my mind, the ref screwed up just as much as the coach.

I agree that you have to give a T if you discover 6 players while the ball is live. I also agree that it is just as much the officials fault as it is the coaches.

Z

Re: Re: It's NOT our fault
 

The reason I made the original statement is that I hear officials talking about not giving the T, at least in part, because "they screwed up." My real point is that if we fail to practice this obvious preventative officiating mechanic, we shouldn't let our failure color our decision as to whether or not to give the T.

That is an interesting statement. What do you do in football if you count 12, blow a whistle and have them leave the field? Don't see the difference in this or most technical situations. Give a T and move on. I will agree that we should have caught it prior to the throw-in and I try to always count, at every level, especially lower levels. But if I don't, the repsonsibility is on the coach and we take away from the other team by ignoring it.

Along the lines of numbers of players: I was coaching a JV team years ago. As happens often with JV teams in our area, because of injuries, players moving up to varsity, and players still on the floor for the sophomore game, I had only 5 players in the lockerroom ready for the start of our game. One of the players asked: "Who is starting?"

Needless to say, it was a tough season.

I disagree. We do it as a courtesy. The responsibility is on the coach/team. In general, a T must be issued.

I had it happen about 2 years ago...but I had counted 5. It turned out the player ran onto the floor (behind me) after the ball was put into play. However, we simply blew the whistle and got her off the floor. Normally, I'd T that, but the other team was winning by over 40 points in the 4th quarter. The other coach politely asked with a smile "That'd be a T in another game, right?" to which I responsed "Absolutely". There are times when it is right to ignore things like this.

Difference in football is officials do not control substitutions, nor when the ball is snapped. Plays start when the offense is ready (assuming ball is spotted!). Players can come and go at will.

In basketball, officials control the entry of players onto the court, and can also make sure that enough players leave the court. and officials hand the ball to the inbounder to make the ball live again. So it IS very different.

That said, in general you need to T this. But I can understand allowances for level of play, especially little kids in rec ball. Laugh at the mistake and get the kid off the court. If the mistake was a couple of minutes old and allowed a team an unfair advantage for a chunk of time, hit them with the T anyway though, even at the younger level. Fairness demands this. If it is young kids rec and you catch it right after the inbounds, no change in possession or score, stop play fix it and move on. You haven't really hurt anybody in this case.

How about this one
 

Happened to me last month.

HS Varsity, very fast paced end to a 20 point lop-sided game... 25 seconds left but both teams are playing strong and fast, hurrying after each basket is made.

Following a basket, the ball bounds down court. Scoring team catches the ball near the top of the key and rolls it towards me standing on the endline.

Inbounding team has a player out of bounds waiting for ball.

I touch the ball with my foot to push it towards OOB player. Ball rolls parallel to endline 2-3 feet inbounds. Player bends to reach ball. Grabs ball and raises. Falls forward with one foot (no attempt to pass) and touches inbounds. Immediately jumps backward OOB and now makes inbounds pass.

Everyone sees the violation... would you call it?

What if it was a 2 point game?

DTTB
I got nothing on that play - the ball was i/b because you made a sloppy push and a player is trying to get it and then inbound it. I would just figure ball wasn't quite at disposal when the player stepped in and play on.

Delay of game on scoring team?
Otherwise, I've got a hard time calling this if my throw knocks him off balance.
Probably nothing either way (blowout or close game)

That's also a good point, but if it happens in football at the lower levels then we tell coaches to count their players. If they don't have them off flag. :)

You probably never work another football game. . . in Canada (which is where JugglingRef officiates :) )

Re: Re: It's NOT our fault
 

It can happen, even to decent refs. I had it happen earlier this season -- I felt bad about it, sure, as preventive officiating is great, but in the end WHO PUT SIX ON THE FLOOR?

Try not to let it happen, but if it does, you have to call a technical.

Rich

Re: Re: Re: It's NOT our fault
 

I completely agree. Maybe I am lucky. [I am going to pause for a sec to knock on some wood.]

I hadn't had it happen since my second year of officiating HS basketball, which was, ummm, not recently. Then it happened in a boys varsity game this season.

Hopefully it will be that long until it happens again.

Exactly!
 

Thanks Coach.

I didn't call anything. Of course the losing coach wanted the call to be made... but only for a couple of seconds. I made the statement to him that it was my fault that it happened. His response was that "It's still a violation."

Everything ended well.:)