There have been a couple of threads recently where the differences between men's and women's rules or mechanics has caused some confusion.

Leaving my own feelings about the differences aside, it seems pretty clear to me that the women are consciously and deliberately trying to make their game more like the pro game. Their rule interpretations about defenders under the basket, their mechanics changes over the last couple years, etc., all move toward the pro ranks.

My question is, and I mean this in all seriousness, why don't they just adopt WNBA rules and mechanics? Has there been any discussion of this? You'd have to tweak them a little (number of personal fouls before disqualification, length of shot clock, distance of the 3-point arc), but they're already tweaking the heck out of the NCAA rules. Why not just go all the way?

Again, this is a serious question and I'm wondering if it's been discussed at all by the rules committee, and what the drawbacks would be.

I think they have changed things about as far as they can. And I might add the changes are for the better.

They are in bed together.
 

If you notice, many of the WNBA Officials work D1 Basketball. And many of the supervisors of D1 Women's basketball, were or are currently WNBA officials. That is the reason all the mechanics and rules changes in many opinions, are because so many officials have direct ties to the WNBA. This is even more of the reason I hate Women's mechanics. One of the main reason I stopped doing those games all togther this year.

Peace

As someone who started officiating women's college basketball 29 years ago, I don't disagree with anything that has been said already, but I am going to stop now before I get started on a rant.

MTD, Sr.

Marcy Weston made some comments on this (especially as relates to mechanics) in the most recent RefMag -- iirc, something to the effect of "they are the best refs, so we'd be foolish not to borrow from them."

Marcy Weston made some comments on this (especially as relates to mechanics) in the most recent RefMag -- iirc, something to the effect of "they are the best refs, so we'd be foolish not to borrow from them."

[/B][/QUOTE]

So Chuck's question is a very good one: Why borrow when you could just buy wholesale?

I don't disagree with that, and I don't have any problem with using WNBA officials in the NCAA. But has there been any discussion of adopting the WNBA rules and mechanics package? Again, serious question; I'm just curious.

I think the NCAA wants to maintain some individuality. Even though the WNBA and NCAA Women use similar officials, there still is some consideration for keep some things separate. At least that is what I hear thru the grapevine and officials that work a the D1 level and those either WNBA canidates or current WNBA officials and even assignors of Women's basketball (many levels). This of course is all talk and does not mean anything until something is done. But it sure seems they want to completely adopt the WNBA/NBA way of doing things.

Peace

Re: They are in bed together.
 

They are in bed together? :D

Nah, it's probably best that I just leave this alone! :)

Re: Re: They are in bed together.
 

I know I was! :D

(Lemme tell ya, it was NOT easy!)

The NCAA womens mechanics are similar to the WNBA. But the NBA mechanics are more closely related to the WNBA/women than they are to the NCAA men.

In the past few years there have been several changes in both the men's and women's mechanics. MOST of these changes (going table side after a foul call, getting rid of '*** to glass' under the basket) occur in the women's game first and then are adopted by the men's side. I'm not saying one is better than the other but that is the way it's been. In very few, if any instances do the women follow the men in mechanics changes. Some might argue that the women's game is more progressive when it comes to officiating. Can anyone name a recent mechanics change that occured in both men's and women's where the women followed the men's lead?

I'm not trying to start a fight here, just posting some personal opinions.

Dubby, that' the point of the post.

WNBA mechanics came from NBA mechanics.

Women's NCAA mechanics are now coming from the WNBA.

The starting point is the NBA, not the WNBA or the NCAA.

I can think of one exception. If memory serves, the NF was having the L administer both FTs without the C entering the lane before NCAA Men started doing it.

Okay, then I misinterpreted the point. Normally when a topic like this comes up it's because people are complaining about women's programs. So many men's officials are stuck on their mechanics being the best and/or only way to do things (at least where I'm from). I didn't think the original post was meant as a compliment....my bad.

Knowing Chuck as I do, I don't think he thinks that way. It was seem that he was simply questioning whether the Women's NCAA have looked at adopting the same rules that the WNBA uses, since the officiating is obviously heading in that direction.

That's all.

This is not a debate over who is the best.
 

Who cares whose mechanics are the best. I would not watch either an NCAA Women's game or a WNBA game. Chuck is asking a legitimate question here (I cannot believe I just said that :D) And it is clear that the NCAA Men's are very reluctant to follow the NBA way of officiating. Even the changes that the Men have made in the past few years, have been to keep their identity. On the flip side the Women's side, whether direct or indirect have tried to adopt everything the NBA/WNBA are doing. That is a common observation and I think Chuck asking the question is very appropriate.

Peace

JRutledge, you're awful touchy about the subject...with that attitude you are obviously a men's official. :)

1. Chuck can defend himself.

2. I never said it was an inappropriate question. In fact, I already apologized if I misinterpreted the quesiton.

3. I never said one way was better than the other.

4. Why is keeping an 'identity' so important? It's definitely not about which group does it better. Shouldn't each group being making changes for the betterment of their game, not so they can be different? All sides from HS through the NBA/WNBA are guilty of this. They don't want to be looked at as being a follower. Very few seem to do (or not do it) to make the game better. If the only justification you can make is 'to keep an identity' then that isn't right.

You have to be touchy to have an opinion? Is the NBA not Men's Basketball? I think most of what the NCAA Women's do, comes directly from the NBA. The WNBA follows because they of course are owned by who......The NBA. The difference between the NBA and WNBA, the WNBA plays during the summer (when no one cares about basketball) and the officials that work the Final Four on the Women's side, can go right to WNBA a few weeks later. Kind of a different dynamic.

Obviously you have not been here long enough to realize that I would not defend Chuck. :D

O......Kaaaayyyy.

OOOOOO.....Kaaaayyyy.

For one, you need to look around the sporting world. Things that are done at the pro level do not translate to the lower levels. Why? Because there is not the same training and same experience level of the players and coaches. And the NCAA in theory is trying to focus on something completely different than the NBA or WNBA is. At least on the Men's side.

Not all of us look toward the NBA for tips on how to officiate. There rules are different, the mechanics are different and the expectations and missions are different than the NCAA. I do not know about you, I cannot even watch most games in the NBA. I would rather have a surgery. Now, since you have assumed that everyone that wants to officiates Men's basketball thinks all Men's basketball is the bomb, then you have a lot to learn. And if you were around long enough, I was being kind. Why watch a game that is 8 minutes longer and the scores are in the 80s just like the NCAA. ;)

Peace

WNCAA / WNBA / NBA
 

I went to the Coast to Coast camp this past July. I was told by several NBA Officials that:

1. The director of Officiating for the NCAA Womens was a NBA referee, so she obviously is biased towards the practices of the NBA.

2. The NBA directly recruits from the NCAA Womens officiating pool, the CBA, WNBA and NBDL are their developmental leagues to get officials ready for the NBA, or at least see if they have "IT".

In conclusion, if you have ANY desire to work NBA, you need to look at working NCAA womens.

Remember, these are things that I heard directly from NBA Officials.

Re: WNCAA / WNBA / NBA
 

I don't think the above statement is correct.

2.NBDL are their developmental leagues to get officials ready for the NBA, or at least see if they have "IT".[/B][/QUOTE]

Wouldn't this be the NBDL?

Re: WNCAA / WNBA / NBA
 

I think you meant to say "if you have any desire to work the WNBA. . ."

The NBA does not draw its officials from NCAA women's officials, as far as I know (and, by coincidence, I just spoke to a D-League official about it this morning!).

[Edited by ChuckElias on Jan 6th, 2004 at 01:06 PM]

Re: Re: WNCAA / WNBA / NBA
 

Yes and no Chuck. That is not the only place they get officials, but they do draw canidates from the NCAA Women's side. The mechanics are almostly identical, so they can evaluate them based on their mechanics. And being from Chicago, like Bill and I are, there are people in this area that can get you opportunities in those leagues. Actually I know several officials that work in the CBA, NBDL and the many other Pro-Am Leagues around the country. More than I can name and most, including myself had never heard of. And as a point of fact, Dee Kantner and Violet Palmer were both NCAA D1 Officials before making the jump to the NBA. Dee has sense gone back to being a D1 official after her release about a year ago.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: WNCAA / WNBA / NBA
 

Ok, I can buy that. The D-League official I spoke to this morning said that working the D-League is by invitation only and to get an invitation, you need to go to the Guthrey camp or the Dale Kelley (Big 12 assignor) camp in early June. The NBA sends evaluators to those camps (but maybe others, too, of course) and then picks a few officials to look at in the NBDL.

That's all second-hand info, but I trust it since the guy has been through the process himself.